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First Lieutenant
 
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Impeached by a patch
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| Nuclearcow,
I know well enough that most people live where they live because of an invasion that happened at one point in time. How does that make it right? Genocide is very historical too, should it also be accepted on that basis? On the contrary, Israel must not be excused for it nor be freed of responsibility for the Palestinian situation; for doing so would set a precedent to keep committing the naturalistic fallacy of accepting it as a part of history, with the implication that there is nothing condemnable whatsoever with the attempts to destroy Israel and establish Palestine in its stead.
The invasion of Palestine, and the expulsion that followed, is not a point of historical curiosity. It is a recent event whose consequences are felt today. Israel did not only commit it, it also profited from it greatly, which is why Israel must be held liable to correct the situation.
Your request for theological debate is granted.
The simple answer is, the Quran was revealed gradually to Muhammed over two decades. There was no divine command to take up arms prior to the establishment of the Islamic state in Medina. The core theological and moral teachings of Islam were revealed during the preceding Meccan period. Teachings concerning war, and other communal-level issues, were revealed during the Medinan period when it became relevant. Muhammed and his followers were a meek and humble lot, they did not turn into holy warriors before God commanded it.
Islam was gradually being revealed during the life of Muhammed; but today, we have the fullness of the revelation to go by, including a comprehensive set of instructions regarding war, peace and foreign relations. If any passage would describe Islamic militarism in a nutshell, it would be Quran 8:59-61
Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better of the godly: they will never frustrate them.
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth all things.
In other words, we welcome peace, even with past enemies who have repented and changed their ways. But for those who insist on being the enemies of Islam, we have nothing but wrack and ruin. The settlers insist on being the enemies of Islam, so... |
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First Lieutenant
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Culture-Monger
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Impeached by a patch
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First Lieutenant
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Culture-Monger
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First Lieutenant
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Udderly ridiculous
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| I don't know what to call this thread as it has jumped all over the place. "Random theological debate?" hehe. I guess it hasn't all been theological.
The simple answer is, the Quran was revealed gradually to Muhammed over two decades. I did not know that. Regarding your post in general, "thank you" for humoring me with a logical and patient response on a potentially touchy subject.
I am hesitant to debate more specifics because I know that I am fairly ignorant of many things with Islam. I guess the biggest, most over-simplified argument I can make is that from the bits and pieces I have read, I cannot imagine Muhammad strapping a bomb on to blow himself up in a market of civilians (or encouraging others to do so), or shelling/rocketing blindly into a city, etc, etc, due to past perceived "evils" committed by a group's ancestors or by a country's leaders, or basically for any reasons I can think up in my mind.
Regarding Israel, you acknowledge that almost everyone in the world is living on lands conquered in the past, so everyone is guilty of the same thing, are they not? Should any man be punished for the "sins" of their ancestors? I would imagine most of the Palestinians who are alive today were not alive when Palestinians were pushed out of their homes, if that is how it happened.
I have mostly Scottish and Irish ancestors. Would it be fair for me to seek reparations, land, etc from England today because land may have been taken from my ancestors from England centuries ago? Surely not, so where does this line get drawn? If Person A does something unfair, unrighteous, mean or whatever to Person B, if reparations and justice can be done, it should be and most people understand why reparations are sought. But what about children and grandchildren of Person A? Should they make payments/reparations to the children and grandchildren of Person B? What about people who have since immigrated into a nation that formed long before they were born. Should they "pay" too because the children and grandchildren of Person B want justice? If another 1000 years goes by, will "Palestinians" still be seeking ill will based on wrongs done to their ancestors and wanting payback, or justice or whats supposedly rightfully theirs? Where do you draw the line?
If I was dictator of the world, I am not sure how I would solve some of the conflicts over there and don't know what I'd do, if anything, to rectify some of those wrongs. By doing something now in 2008, it almost seems like any actions by either party is committing wrongs to more innocents, in my opinion. |
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"For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. "
-- John F. Kennedy
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