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Culture-Monger
      
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Impeached by a patch
Last Seen: 8/16/2008 9:25 AM
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Grognard fantôme
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Impeached by a patch
Last Seen: 8/16/2008 9:25 AM
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Grognard fantôme
Last Seen: Yesterday @ 8:13 PM
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| What did the Yanks and the Russkies do to stop the Brits, French and Chinese from getting a global delivery capability behind their nukes? My understanding is the Yanks HELPED the Brits and French, and I would not be surprised if the Russkies helped the Chinese to get their first programs. You are correct in the sense that the Russians helped the Pakistanis, and likely the Indians as well, and the Americans likely helped the Israelis. But global delivery systems are a different story. Let me rephrase: if PR and strategic expediency for some reason obviates the Western motive to smack Iran's burgeoning efforts, and Russia's efforts to help Iran get nukes succeeds, you and I both know that the consequence will be U.S. will then "help" Saudi, and Israel (Turkey?) to get the means to nullify that capacity. We are led back to my balance of power argument: the balance of power remains Western Powers vs. Post-Commie Powers and her allies. |
-- "'The front' is wherever you stop running away. Get used to it. This is what modern warfare looks like." K T Cat |  |  |
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Udderly ridiculous
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Grognard fantôme
Last Seen: Yesterday @ 8:13 PM
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| Weren't we talking about suitcase nukes in this thread? Who needs a suitcase nuke when you can get a "mini-nuke," e.g., something along the lines of the warhead from a retired Davy Crockett M-388 tactical nuclear recoilless rifle?The M-388 round used a version of the W54 warhead, a very small sub- kiloton fission device. The Mk-54 weighed about 51 lb (23 kg), with a selectable yield of 10 or 20 tons (very close to the minimum practical size and yield for a fission warhead) up to 0.5 kiloton. The complete round weighed 76 lb (34.5 kg). It was 31 in. (78.7 cm) long with a diameter of 11 in. (28 cm) at its widest point; a subcaliber piston at the back of the shell was actually inserted into the launcher's barrel for firing. [1]True, not exactly suitcase sized; but 79cm x 28cm and 23kg is certainly small enough to be toted around on a workman's hand truck or mail carrier's cart, let alone in the trunk of a car, parked in a car-park in the middle of some other high-pop density area (University, city center, amusement park, etc.). A reasonably strong person could carry it under one arm . . . The Davy Crockett could be launched from either of two launchers: the 4-inch (102 mm) M28, with a range of about 1.25 mi (2 km), or the 6-in (155 mm) M29, with a range of 2.5 mi (4 km). Both weapons used the same projectile, and could be mounted on a tripod launcher or carried by truck or armored personnel carrier. They were operated by a three-man crew. [2]Obviously a launcher is pretty irrelvant for any terrorist intentions, but if it was so easy to produce, so stable, and so readily attached to a rifle, why are these things not all over the place!? ADDIT: on second thought, maybe the launcher would actually be really useful for a terrorist attack, see below . . . Production of the Davy Crockett began in 1956, with a total of 2,100 being made. The weapon was deployed with U.S. Army forces from 1961 to 1971. So this is 40+ year old technology, which was sufficiently reliable and efficient to produce that the U.S. had 2100 of them made, and they were actually deployed with European defense elements until 1971. Most likely the only reason they were un-deployed is because something better was developed! So again my question: why does Iran NOT have these? Why does Al Qaeda or Hamas, NOT have these sorts of things? Could it be because they have not yet developed the nuclear infrastructure to be able to produce such things, and that the black market from Russia, Pakistan, RNK, China, etc., is just too problematic/expensive? Both recoilless guns proved to have poor accuracy in testing, so the shell's greatest effect would have been its extreme radiation hazard. Even at a low yield setting, the M388 would produce an almost instantly lethal radiation dosage (in excess of 10,000 rem) within 500 feet (150 m), and a probably fatal dose (around 600 rem) within a quarter mile (400 meters). [3]600 rem at 400m, so probably still 10 or 20 rem at 700m (~half-mile). Basically anything above 100 rem and you are going to get very sick and with increasing levels of fatalities (estimated at 10% at 100 to 200 rem; est at 60% fatality at 400-600rem). Moreover, even if you only get exposed to 50 or 60 rem, and don't die, you will NOT be a happy camper, may never be able to reproduce, and may well die of cancer much earlier than otherwise. I would say that: picking the right spot, one of these babies could be used to cause considerable havoc by a malicious terrorist element. To be objective: it is true that many of the most high-pop-density contexts (e.g., a Manhattan type situation, or a basement car-park of a skyscraper, or a multi-level parking garage of a shopping mall, etc.) are also going to have structural features (namely buildings and floors made of concrete and steel) that will severely limit the effects of both the blast and the radiation exposure . . . But set off one of these babies inside a stadium with a rock concert, football game, fireworks display, etc., and it seems to me you could EASILY kill 50 to 60,000 people, depending on the popularity of the spectacle in question. Michigan Stadium e.g., holds ~108,000 to 111,000 people (111 with bands, teams, media, etc.). 
Lesse, a football field is maybe 150 total length (including the endzones, etc.) add maybe 100 meters on each end for the seats . . . we're talkin' a concentrated target that is 350 to 450m diameter with up to 111,000 innocent souls just trying to have a good time inside. Detonate a device comparable to the W54 warhead from a Davy Crockett inside the perimeter of the open interior part of "The Big House" and my guess is you'd kill at least half the spectators, maybe most of them. . . . . Yeah, preventing THAT would not be worth waterboarding some terrorist scumbag . . . Now, what was that about "everyone should be able to have their very own nuclear program?" ADDIT: on second thought, the launcher could be extremely useful. Since 9/11 "security" in places like stadiums has likely gotten a bit more rigorous. But if you can put one of these on a launcher why bother trying to smuggle past stadium security? Get a flat-bed truck and a launcher similar to the old M-29 (couldn't be too hard for a nation like Iran to put together), and make a fresh new Davy Crockett-knockoff device. If you had the infrastucture putting it together might take, what? Six months? Now smuggle it through Mexico into the U.S. . . . hardly a challenge whatsoever. Now get it to where your truck is parked, and mount the M-29 on the truck bed, and create a pullover "cowl" to cover the launcher and crew. Pick a day some 3 to 4 months hence when a big event will be held in some place like "The Big House" (see above), and start figuring out the best fire-locations, and firing-solutions. Mount your M-29 with the pre-set firing-solutions (probably improving accuracy notably) in the bed of the truck. At the right moment (e.g., half-time celebration) drive your truck into position, pull back the cowl, launch your nuke, then detonate a conventional explosive device inside the truck, giving the fanatics their longed-for journey to meet the 92 virgins . . . The more I think about it, the utter ease of pulling an attack like this is very, VERY chilling to consider . . . |
-- "'The front' is wherever you stop running away. Get used to it. This is what modern warfare looks like." K T Cat
Edited: 7/12/2008 10:03 AM by Scipio Africanus |  |  |
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Grognard fantôme
Last Seen: Yesterday @ 8:13 PM
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Udderly ridiculous
Last Seen: Today @ 10:28 AM
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| Scip, Do you spend all your free time (when not on 1bc) on Youtube? |
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 -"You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step." -"If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live." |
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