1BC Civ Forums / Off Topic Discussions / More Than a Game, Civ in Real Life / Politics & Religion

Comedy In P&R?

Black Owl — Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:33:32 GMT

In surfing the web I often come across things I think would be great to post. Political and Religious satire that just begs for posting. But some would be best not posted to a "HOT" topic. It would inflame it further. And we could really use a few laughs here. Of course one should be reflective of others. I wouldn't post anything here that would come across as a personal attack. But laughing at ourselves is good medicine. This is P&R. Nothing asks for humor more than that.:hehe:

I'll jump first.

(In a very short time) "See ya'll. It's been real!"

I should have posted this right from the start but did not feel it was needed. Now, after all the discussion I see that it is. Since I created this thread I am responsible for atleast making this statement. THIS NOT AN INVITATION TO BASH FELLOW MEMBERS. OR TO PROMOTE HATE. This thread exists to find the humor in everyday worldly occurences and to invite more debate if it is warranted. I believe that to find humor in an otherwise uncomfortable or intense subject is to lesson it's impact. This thread is open to derailrment if it indeed encourages debate, with the added feature of satirical humor. But as with text, satire can be misused. I will be one of the first to jump if it is and invite other members to also be vocal as to transgression. This could be a great and entertaining, if not steam releasing Topic if handled with MATURITY, SENSETIVITY, AND COMMON SENSE. Don't come here with a hateful attitude and look for revenge. You will be rebuffed. Lets give this a chance to be what it could be. Just another facet of 1bc, and another approach to finding the humor in our own thoughts and actions not just others. If you can laugh at yourself, the rest of the world may just be more willing to listen.:)

Israel bombs Hamas Compounds

Nuclearcow — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:43:03 GMT

[url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians[/url]

Maybe us Americans do have a biased thought process towards Israel, but in my mindset... what did Hamas expect? You keep picking on a giant, you're going eventually going to make him angry. Firing hundreds of rockets into Israel and killing people (including Arab children in Gaza) is hardly the actions of a peaceful group.

Well, darkness cannot defeat darkness, but I also think Israel has to make some sort of military response to military attacks.

Why the smokers die?

-M- — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:27:57 GMT

Bcz of cardbox

Easy access and use is inducive of abuse, so an average smokers tends to smoke far in excess of his regenerative potential. Just as McD can be blamed for making food easily available & therefore extrapolated into fattening up the population, same is true of tobacco industry. They work off of our natural tendency to attain profits unreachable w/out the cardbox. Should smoking be banned? Dont think so, enough would be to ban packaging. We would have a far healthier population, unprofitability would force significant share of players to drop out, and the industry would shrink from multi-billions to mare millions. Viva el mundo pre-colombiano.

Congress gives themselves a raise

Nuclearcow — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:09:14 GMT

What the heck!? All the criticism of CEOs making big bucks in a rough economy and Congress gives themselves a raise? Of all the years, this year should have been one where they didn't give themselves one.

Likewise, all their criticisms of Bush and his low approval ratings and all the while Congress had a LOWER approval rating. The citizens are their bosses and if they think they're doing a horrible job, it must be nice to be able to give themselves a raise anyways.

I'm starting to think like some of the folks that think we need to vote out the incumbent in EVERY seat in the House and Senate and start fresh.

[url]
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/with-economy-in-shambles-congress-gets-a-raise-2008-12-17.html [/url]

my GOD (pun intended)

frogmanFW — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:32:57 GMT

Ok, here we go again. A useless lawsuit tying up the court system over some total horsecrap.

Atheists want to force "so help me God" out of the inauguration.

I like this part...

[quote]Newdow and other plaintiffs say they want to watch the inaugural either in person or on television. As atheists, they contend, having to watch a ceremony with religious components will make them feel excluded and stigmatized.

"Plaintiffs are placed in the untenable position of having to choose between not watching the presidential inauguration or being forced to countenance endorsements of purely religious notions that they expressly deny," according to the lawsuit[/quote]

My emphasis - because if you're so G-D offended then DON'T WATCH!!!

Last I looked, the utterance of "so help me God" in their swearing-in had absolutely nothing to do with anything that a president did or stood for.

US Troops Wary of Obama

Nuclearcow — Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:31:49 GMT

[quote]When asked how they feel about President-elect Barack Obama as commander in chief, six out of 10 active-duty service members say they are uncertain or pessimistic, according to a Military Times survey.[/quote]

[url]http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/12/military_poll_main_122908/[/url]

What do you think? Are you surprised at this poll, or not?

Global Warming Thread

jerm — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:09:02 GMT

Alrighty, is it just me or has this been a rather cold and long winter? I know we've had discussions on Global Warming but I thought I'd start a thread so we could have a... ahem... debate on the issue. Heck, we can even debate whether or not "the debate is over." Sure it may just go to the thread grave yard but what the hell.

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/09/do0902.xml]Climate dissent grows hotter as chill deepens[/url]

By Christopher Booker

Last week, virtually unreported in Britain, the extraordinary winter weather of 2008 elsewhere in the world continued. In the USA, there were blizzards as far south as Texas and Arkansas, while in northern states and Canada what they are calling "the winter from hell" has continued to break records going back in some cases to 1873. Meanwhile in Asia more details emerged of the catastrophe caused by the northern hemisphere's greatest snow cover since 1966.

In Afghanistan, where they have lost 300,000 cattle, the human death toll has risen above 1,500. In China, the havoc created by what its media call "the Winter Snow Disaster" has continued, not least in Tibet, where six months of snow and record low temperatures have killed 500,000 animals, leaving 3 million people on the edge of starvation.

It might have seemed timely that in New York an array of leading climatologists and other experts should have gathered for the most high-powered international conference yet to question the "consensus" on global warming. After three days of what the chairman called "the kind of free-spirited debate that is virtually absent from the global warming alarmist camp", the 500 delegates issued the Manhattan Declaration, stating that attempts by governments to reduce CO2 emissions would "markedly diminish further prosperity" while having "no appreciable impact" on the Earth's warming.

This inevitably attracted the kind of hysterical abuse that has become so familiar from warmist fanatics, tellingly contrasting with the measured arguments put forward by the scientists present. One was Anthony Watts, the meteorologist who last year famously forced Nasa's Goddard Institute to correct a fundamental error in its data on US surface temperatures, to show that the hottest decade of the 20th century was not the 1990s but the 1930s.

On his website, Watts Up With That, he is currently posting a corrected version of the global temperature graph, combining satellite and surface data from all four main official sources. A measure of his scrupulous reporting is that although this shows a recent dramatic dip in temperatures, he cautiously explains that it is not yet conclusive evidence that the world has entered a new cooling phase (as he points out, there was temporarily an even sharper drop after the "peak" El Niño year 1998).

But can we doubt that, if the data showed the opposite, the media would be rushing to report this as yet further "proof" that the planet is heating out of control? The fact is that, for all their caveats that this drop in temperatures can be explained by the cooling effect of La Niña, the official orthodoxy that "more CO2 means more warming" is facing its most serious challenge yet. In light of the colossal price we are all in so many ways being asked to pay for it, the data in coming years will be more than interesting.

Classy?

frogmanFW — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:50:16 GMT

This is not so much a new thread but a response to another one that was probably about to get moved here re:content.

[quote]McCain is not on a pedestal but he is classier than Obama. Just wait until what gets uncovered from Obama's rise through the same Chicago machine that produced Blagojevich. I live in a wonderful state when it comes to our politicians, believe me. They can't play in the pig pen and not get dirty.[/quote]

I would rather have a politician who has to sludge through the machine than to have someone who has so little respect for people that he divorces his crippled wife who waited for him while he was a POW to marry his mistress, and then calls that same second wife a c*nt in front of people. Classy? Please.

Please note:

[quote]This event was witnessed by 3 reporters and two aides of John McCain, Doug Cole and Wes Gullett.[/quote]

All politicians are dirty but some are just plain horrible to other human beings. HE'S ONE. So I don't want to hear the classy argument.

Weapons

-M- — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 03:07:01 GMT

It was the usual. A sleepless night, gazing into the infinite dark, pondering the myriad of problems that plague humanity.

Gub control - what a load of crap. A human, by his very nature a resourceful being, can turn anything into a weapon. Even something as innocent as a shirt, just look at Jackie Chan. So why owning a gun has to be a political issue?

Bcz people are governed by emotions. The crowd is a herd and all it takes for it to start spampeding is a loud dog (may be a skilled rhetorician). Life being a game of chance, someone inevitably gets hurt. In his search for cause, with vision clouded, he can only see the immidiete. A scapegoat is born.

Why ban guns? Instead let people own bulletproof vests. Make them as easily obtainable. Only pluses I can see - increased exchange (economic activity). In its dormant state, a vest cannot match the gun, but w/increased activity will come newer technologies. The vest will shine.

Anywhere a power inbalance is present, so is present abuse. W/governemnts of the world equiped far better than the average citizen, incentive is present to oppress. They say that power corrupts all. No wonder so many people toil away in slavery, unable to speak, ever mindful of the oppressor so much more better equipped for a fight. Then there is America w/freedom to own what you want and incidentally also with a government (democratic at that, which is the most chaotic form of governance that has been in practice) that actually works for its citizenry. Go figure & dont give examples from somewhere in Europe: "So and so a place is gun free and doesnt seem to be much worse off". Wealthy have less reason to be unhappy & taxation is a form of oppression anyway. Europe got rediculous tax systems, but long time ago when they got their wealth gun making was a far simpler matter.

Happy New Year All :)

Tis the Season - Hamas legalizes crucifixion

Nuclearcow — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:30:49 GMT

One more reason why Hamas is really a peaceful group with nothing but tolerance in mind for their brothers of different faiths. They legalize crucifixion for people not of their faith.

Yeah, because THATS what Muhammad would do. :crazy:

[url]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230111707087&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull[/url]

ISI Wings Being Clipped

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:04:58 GMT

The India story is not the only emerging news from Pakistan. The Powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) of course has been well known to have elements sympathetic to the Taliban and AQ.

[url=http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JL25Df01.html]Pakistan Spies Reigned In[/url]

[b]Pakistan's spies reined in
By Syed Saleem Shahzad[/b]

KARACHI - Two major events are likely to mark the beginning of 2009 and decide the new rules of war and peace in the region. In Pakistan, the foremost is curtailing the powerful military dominated intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), and the second is the unveiling of a new strategy in Afghanistan.

These two steps have emerged after months of high-level consultations between all the regional players, including the Afghan, Pakistani and Indian political leadership and the Western military establishment. American military officials have gone the extra mile to set up an incentive package to make these plans successful.

The process of clipping the wings of the ISI, elements of which have sympathies with the Taliban in Afghanistan and militants, could not take place during the rule of former president General Pervez Musharraf, who was succeeded by a civilian government early in the year after nine years of rule.

Moves were made to place the ISI under the civilian authority of the Ministry of Interior, but these were blocked by the military. Still, a few weeks ago the ISI's political cell was shut down, a development announced by Prime Minister
Syed Yousuf Raza Gillani.

The next move is to appoint a civilian as director general of the ISI with the aim of eventually reducing the agency to an intelligence wing of the Ministry of Interior, from the grand secret service it was that earned international fame during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s in support of the mujahideen resistance.

The plan has been agreed to by the military leadership, which earlier showed its concern on the question of the handling the external security issues if the ISI worked under the Ministry of Interior. Apparently, the brass were convinced by senior US officials who had a long list of complaints against the ISI for its lack of cooperation in the "war on terror".

And so on...

Ok here's Obamas program

Tosk — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 04:52:43 GMT

Lets watch and see what gets done and what gets passed over.
I beleive that the program is way too long to expect that all of it will get done.

Let's keep an eye on these for the next 4 years. He has promised to:

Jumpstart the Economy
Enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families:Barack Obama and Joe Biden will enact a windfall profits tax on excessive oil company profits to give American families an immediate $1,000 emergency energy rebate to help families pay rising bills. This relief would be a down payment on the Obama-Biden long-term plan to provide middle-class families with at least $1,000 per year in permanent tax relief.

Provide $50 billion to Jumpstart the Economy and Prevent 1 Million Americans from Losing Their Jobs:
This relief would include a $25 billion State Growth Fund to prevent state and local cuts in health, education, housing, and heating assistance or counterproductive increases in property taxes, tolls or fees. The Obama-Biden relief plan will also include $25 billion in a Jobs and Growth Fund to prevent cutbacks in road and bridge maintenance and fund school repair - all to save more than 1 million jobs in danger of being cut.

Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief Obama and Biden will cut income taxes by $1,000 for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay.

Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama and Biden will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama and Biden will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.

Eliminate Income Taxes for Seniors Making Less than $50,000: Barack Obama will eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This proposal will eliminate income taxes for 7 million seniors and provide these seniors with an average savings of $1,400 each year. Under the Obama-Biden plan, 27 million American seniors will also not need to file an income tax return.

Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama and Biden will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama and Biden will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama-Biden proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.

Trade
Obama and Biden believe that trade with foreign nations should strengthen the American economy and create more American jobs. He will stand firm against agreements that undermine our economic security.

Fight for Fair Trade: Obama and Biden will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs. They will use trade agreements to spread good labor and environmental standards around the world and stand firm against agreements like the Central American Free Trade Agreement that fail to live up to those important benchmarks. Obama and Biden will also pressure the World Trade Organization to enforce trade agreements and stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports.

Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama and Biden believe that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. They will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.
Improve Transition Assistance: To help all workers adapt to a rapidly changing economy, Obama and Biden will update the existing system of Trade Adjustment Assistance by extending it to service industries, creating flexible education accounts to help workers retrain, and providing retraining assistance for workers in sectors of the economy vulnerable to dislocation before they lose their jobs.
End Tax Breaks for Companies that Send Jobs Overseas: Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe that companies should not get billions of dollars in tax deductions for moving their operations overseas. Obama and Biden will also fight to ensure that public contracts are awarded to companies that are committed to American workers.

Reward Companies that Support American Workers: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 with Senators Richard Durbin (D-IL) and Sherrod Brown (D-OH) to reward companies that create good jobs with good benefits for American workers. The legislation would provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America if it has ever been in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.

Invest in the Manufacturing Sector and Create 5 Million New Green Jobs
Invest in our Next Generation Innovators and Job Creators: Obama and Biden will create an Advanced Manufacturing Fund to identify and invest in the most compelling advanced manufacturing strategies. The Fund will have a peer-review selection and award process based on the Michigan 21st Century Jobs Fund, a state-level initiative that has awarded over $125 million to Michigan businesses with the most innovative proposals to create new products and new jobs in the state.

Double Funding for the Manufacturing Extension Partnership: The Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) works with manufacturers across the country to improve efficiency, implement new technology and strengthen company growth. This highly-successful program has engaged in more than 350,000 projects across the country and in 2006 alone, helped create and protect over 50,000 jobs. But despite this success, funding for MEP has been slashed by the Bush administration. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will double funding for the MEP so its training centers can continue to bolster the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers.

Invest In A Clean Energy Economy And Create 5 Million New Green Jobs:
Obama and Biden will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial scale renewable energy, invest in low emissions coal plants, and begin transition to a new digital electricity grid. The plan will also invest in America's highly-skilled manufacturing workforce and manufacturing centers to ensure that American workers have the skills and tools they need to pioneer the first wave of green technologies that will be in high demand throughout the world.

Create New Job Training Programs for Clean Technologies: The Obama-Biden plan will increase funding for federal workforce training programs and direct these programs to incorporate green technologies training, such as advanced manufacturing and weatherization training, into their efforts to help Americans find and retain stable, high-paying jobs. Obama and Biden will also create an energy-focused youth jobs program to invest in disconnected and disadvantaged youth.

Boost the Renewable Energy Sector and Create New Jobs:
The Obama-Biden plan will create new federal policies, and expand existing ones, that have been proven to create new American jobs. Obama and Biden will create a federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) that will require 25 percent of American electricity be derived from renewable sources by 2025, which has the potential to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs on its own. Obama and Biden will also extend the Production Tax Credit, a credit used successfully by American farmers and investors to increase renewable energy production and create new local jobs.

New Jobs Through National Infrastructure Investment
Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe that it is critically important for the United States to rebuild its national transportation infrastructure – its highways, bridges, roads, ports, air, and train systems – to strengthen user safety, bolster our long-term competitiveness and ensure our economy continues to grow.

Create a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank:
Barack Obama and Joe Biden will address the infrastructure challenge by creating a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank to expand and enhance, not supplant, existing federal transportation investments. This independent entity will be directed to invest in our nation’s most challenging transportation infrastructure needs. The Bank will receive an infusion of federal money, $60 billion over 10 years, to provide financing to transportation infrastructure projects across the nation. These projects will create up to two million new direct and indirect jobs and stimulate approximately $35 billion per year in new economic activity.

Technology, Innovation and Creating Jobs
Barack Obama and Joe Biden will increase federal support for research, technology and innovation for companies and universities so that American families can lead the world in creating new advanced jobs and products.

Invest in the Sciences:
Barack Obama and Joe Biden support doubling federal funding for basic research and changing the posture of our federal government from being one of the most anti-science administrations in American history to one that embraces science and technology. This will foster home-grown innovation, help ensure the competitiveness of US technology-based businesses, and ensure that 21st century jobs can and will grow in America.

Make the Research and Development Tax Credit Permanent: Barack Obama and Joe Biden want investments in a skilled research and development workforce and technology infrastructure to be supported here in America so that American workers and communities will benefit. Obama and Biden want to make the Research and Development tax credit permanent so that firms can rely on it when making decisions to invest in domestic R&D over multi-year timeframes.

Deploy Next-Generation Broadband:
Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe we can get broadband to every community in America through a combination of reform of the Universal Service Fund, better use of the nation's wireless spectrum, promotion of next-generation facilities, technologies and applications, and new tax and loan incentives.

Support Small Business
Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation. Obama and Biden will also support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.

Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies. Obama and Biden will invest $250 million per year to increase the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country.

Labor
Obama and Biden will strengthen the ability of workers to organize unions. He will fight for passage of the Employee Free Choice Act. Obama and Biden will ensure that his labor appointees support workers' rights and will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers. Obama and Biden will also increase the minimum wage and index it to inflation to ensure it rises every year.

Ensure Freedom to Unionize:
Obama and Biden believe that workers should have the freedom to choose whether to join a union without harassment or intimidation from their employers. Obama cosponsored and is strong advocate for the Employee Free Choice Act, a bipartisan effort to assure that workers can exercise their right to organize. He will continue to fight for EFCA's passage and sign it into law.

Fight Attacks on Workers' Right to Organize:
Obama has fought the Bush National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) efforts to strip workers of their right to organize. He is a cosponsor of legislation to overturn the NLRB's "Kentucky River" decisions classifying hundreds of thousands of nurses, construction, and professional workers as "supervisors" who are not protected by federal labor laws.

Protect Striking Workers:
Obama and Biden support the right of workers to bargain collectively and strike if necessary. They will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods.

Raise the Minimum Wage:
Barack Obama and Joe Biden will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.

Protect Homeownership and Crack Down on Mortgage Fraud
Obama and Biden will crack down on fraudulent brokers and lenders. They will also make sure homebuyers have honest and complete information about their mortgage options, and they will give a tax credit to all middle-class homeowners.

Create a Universal Mortgage Credit:
Obama and Biden will create a 10 percent universal mortgage credit to provide homeowners who do not itemize tax relief. This credit will provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.

Ensure More Accountability in the Subprime Mortgage Industry: Obama has been closely monitoring the subprime mortgage situation for years, and introduced comprehensive legislation over a year ago to fight mortgage fraud and protect consumers against abusive lending practices. Obama's STOP FRAUD Act provides the first federal definition of mortgage fraud, increases funding for federal and state law enforcement programs, creates new criminal penalties for mortgage professionals found guilty of fraud, and requires industry insiders to report suspicious activity.

Mandate Accurate Loan Disclosure:
Obama and Biden will create a Homeowner Obligation Made Explicit (HOME) score, which will provide potential borrowers with a simplified, standardized borrower metric (similar to APR) for home mortgages. The HOME score will allow individuals to easily compare various mortgage products and understand the full cost of the loan.

Close Bankruptcy Loophole for Mortgage Companies: Obama and Biden will work to eliminate the provision that prevents bankruptcy courts from modifying an individual's mortgage payments. They believe that the subprime mortgage industry, which has engaged in dangerous and sometimes unscrupulous business practices, should not be shielded by outdated federal law.

Address Predatory Credit Card Practices
Obama and Biden will establish a five-star rating system so that every consumer knows the risk involved in every credit card. They also will establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to stop credit card companies from exploiting consumers with unfair practices.

Create a Credit Card Rating System to Improve Disclosure: Obama and Biden will create a credit card rating system, modeled on five-star systems used for other consumer products, to provide consumers an easily identifiable ranking of credit cards, based on the card's features. Credit card companies will be required to display the rating on all application and contract materials, enabling consumers to quickly understand all of the major provisions of a credit card without having to rely exclusively on fine print in lengthy documents.
Establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to Protect Consumers: Obama and Biden will create a Credit Card Bill of Rights to protect consumers. The Obama-Biden plan will:
Ban Unilateral Changes
Apply Interest Rate Increases Only to Future Debt
Prohibit Interest on Fees
Prohibit "Universal Defaults"
Require Prompt and Fair Crediting of Cardholder Payments
Reform Bankruptcy Laws
Obama and Biden will reform our bankruptcy laws to protect working people, ban executive bonuses for bankrupt companies, and require disclosure of all pension investments.

Cap Outlandish Interest Rates on Payday Loans and Improve Disclosure:
Obama and Biden will extend a 36 percent interest cap to all Americans. They will require lenders to provide clear and simplified information about loan fees, payments and penalties, which is why they'll require lenders to provide this information during the application process.

Encourage Responsible Lending Institutions to Make Small Consumer Loans: Obama and Biden will encourage banks, credit unions and Community Development Financial Institutions to provide affordable short-term and small-dollar loans and to drive unscrupulous lenders out of business.

Reform Bankruptcy Laws to Protect Families Facing a Medical Crisis: Obama and Biden will create an exemption in bankruptcy law for individuals who can prove they filed for bankruptcy because of medical expenses. This exemption will create a process that forgives the debt and lets the individuals get back on their feet.

Work/Family Balance
Obama and Biden will double funding for after-school programs, expand the Family Medical Leave Act, provide low-income families with a refundable tax credit to help with their child-care expenses, and encourage flexible work schedules.

Expand the Family and Medical Leave Act:
The FMLA covers only certain employees of employers with 50 or more employees. Obama and Biden will expand it to cover businesses with 25 or more employees. They will expand the FMLA to cover more purposes as well, including allowing workers to take leave for elder care needs; allowing parents up to 24 hours of leave each year to participate in their children's academic activities; and expanding FMLA to cover leave for employees to address domestic violence.

Encourage States to Adopt Paid Leave:
As president, Obama will initiate a strategy to encourage all 50 states to adopt paid-leave systems. Obama and Biden will provide a $1.5 billion fund to assist states with start-up costs and to help states offset the costs for employees and employers.
Expand High-Quality Afterschool Opportunities: Obama and Biden will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs, the 21st Century Learning Centers program, to serve a million more children. Obama and Biden will include measures to maximize performance and effectiveness across grantees nationwide.

Expand the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit:
The Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit provides too little relief to families that struggle to afford child care expenses. Obama and Biden will reform the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit by making it refundable and allowing low-income families to receive up to a 50 percent credit for their child care expenses.

Protect Against Caregiver Discrimination:
Workers with family obligations often are discriminated against in the workplace. Obama and Biden will enforce the recently-enacted Equal Employment Opportunity Commission guidelines on caregiver discrimination.

Expand Flexible Work Arrangements:
Obama and Biden will create a program to inform businesses about the benefits of flexible work schedules; help businesses create flexible work opportunities; and increase federal incentives for telecommuting. Obama and Biden will also make the federal government a model employer in terms of adopting flexible work schedules and permitting employees to request flexible arrangements.

Whether you agree with any item or not is irrelevant ... I'm just interested in seeing what gets accomplished from the campaign li uhhh promises.

Obama's Citizenship Questioned

Scipio Africanus — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:24:17 GMT

I'm surprised that this has not come up here in P&R before now. Do any of you other guys know anything more about this story?

[url=http://obamabirthcertificatesupremecourt.blogspot.com]Supeme Court Reviews Barack Obama's Citizenship[/url]

Is this for real? Has the Obama group actually refused to provide the birth certificate or not? If so, that is a bit fishy.

On the other hand, could just be the Republican version of the Booshophobia-Vilification-Mechanism, getting its first few revolutions in motion.

ADDIT: just found this, a [url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,664988.story]Chicago Tribune Story[/url] about the Supreme Court deliberating on the suit, so I guess it is not some kinda hoax.

[quote]Another suit by a Kentucky man seeks to have a federal judge review Obama's original birth certificate, which Hawaiian officials say is locked in a state vault[/quote]

Okay, so if Hawaii has his birth certificate in a vault, then why don't they just send a certified copy of it to the Supreme Court and voila, end of dispute, no?

The Third Way

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:22:35 GMT

Taking some quotes from the other thread:

[quote][b]Locus Coeruleus (12/18/2008)[/b][hr][quote] Well, the conservative base is kind of like the liberal base, in that neither will hold up when The Third Way bolt in the opposite direction.[/quote]

and response:

[quote][b]Scipio Africanus (12/18/2008)[/b][hr]We, the 'Third Way' as LC puts it, ARE the majority, and we do NOT want you extremists in control of our lives. [/quote]

Needless to say, there is a reason I phrased it "The Third Way", but I did not come up with this term myself. It is a relatively new phrase for me. I may have heard of it before, but I never really grasped it. I wonder how many here are familiar with this concept. It is more specific than being a centrist or a moderate, though it is closely tied to such sentiments. No longer can Ann Coulter label us a spineless wavering idiots who do not stand for something, either you are a liberal or a conservative. No Ann, we are neither. We are the Third Way!!!!! Though, just like being a liberal or conservative, I am certain almost every centrist has their own particular version of what being a centrist is.

[quote]"The swing voters -- I like to refer to them as the idiot voters because they don't have set philosophical principles. You're either a liberal or you're a conservative if you have an IQ above a toaster." [/quote]

No Ann, it is you who does not have an IQ above a toaster, thank you very much.

Anyways, while reading up on Greenland, it led me to a fact finding mission on Danish PM, Anders Fogh Rasmussen (one of a handful of Euro pols that I could identify by name without looking it up. :) ). I found this little bit of wisdom:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Fogh_Rasmussen#Political_ideology]Rasmussen Political Ideology[/url]

[quote]In general, Rasmussen is in favour of deregulation, privatization, and limiting the size of government. His government has also enacted tough measures designed to limit the number of immigrants coming to Denmark, specifically as asylumseekers or through arranged marriages.

Rasmussen wrote the book Fra socialstat til minimalstat (literally: From social state to minimal state) in 1993, in which he advocated an extensive reform of the Danish welfare system along classic liberal lines. In particular, he favors lower taxes and less government interference in corporate and individual matters etc. In 1993 he was awarded the Adam Smith award by the libertarian society Libertas, partly due to his having written Fra socialstat til minimalstat. However, after becoming Prime Minister, [b]Rasmussen has distanced himself from his earlier writings and has announced the death of liberalism during the national elections of 2005. Commonly regarded as being inspired by the previous success of Tony Blair, Rasmussen now seems more in favour of the theories of Anthony Giddens and his third way.[/b] There was talk in Libertas of revoking Fogh Rasmussen's award as a result of this, though this never happened.[/quote]

Amazing. A leading politician in europe who is not a strict socialist and rather quite conservative. He even supported the Iraq war. It's quite incredible. Anyways, this is where I come acros the Third Way, or Anthony Giddens, who for sure, has been a champion of it, though he surely did not invent the concept.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)]Third Way (centrism)[/url]

[quote]The Third Way is a term that has been used to describe a variety of political philosophies of governance that embrace a mix of market and interventionist philosophies. Third Way approaches are commonly viewed as representing a centrist compromise between capitalism and socialism, or between market liberalism and democratic socialism. However, proponents of third way philosophies often claim that the third way represents a synthesis of these competing viewpoints, distinct from and superior to both of its sources, rather than simply a compromise or mixture.[1]. This claim is embodied in the alternative description of the Third Way as the Radical center.

Past invocations of a political 'third way', in this sense, have included the Fabian Socialism, Distributism, Keynesian economics, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, and Harold Macmillan's 1950s One Nation Conservatism.[2] A "Third Way" approach has been adopted by some social democrats and social liberals in many Western liberal democracies.[3]

Third Way policies were enacted in the 1980s in Australia by the Hawke/Keating Labor governments.[4] The most recent prominent examples are the Clinton Administration in the United States as well as presidential candidate Hillary Clinton[5], the Labour Party (New Labour) governments of the United Kingdom under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, the Liberal Party government of Canada under Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin, the Australian Labor Party under Kevin Rudd and Mark Latham and the Polder Model in The Netherlands.

The Third Way rejects both socialism and laissez-faire approaches to economic governance, but chiefly stresses technological development, education, and competitive mechanisms to pursue economic progress and governmental objectives.[6] One of its central aims is to protect the modern welfare state through reforms that maintain its economic integrity.[7]

The third way has been criticized by some conservatives and libertarians who advocate laissez-faire capitalism.[8] It has also been heavily criticized by many social democrats and democratic socialists in particular as a betrayal of left-wing values.[/quote]

Origins:

[quote]The term "Third Way" has been used to explain a variety of political policies and ideology in the last few centuries. The term itself extends back at least a century, to when Pope Pius XI called for a Third Way between Socialism and Capitalism at the end of the 1800s.[9] These ideas were implemented by both progressives and fascists in the early 20th century.[10] The Third Way philosophy was extended in the 1950s by German ordoliberal economists such as Wilhelm Röpke, resulting in the development of the concept of the social market economy. Most significantly, Harold Macmillan, British Prime Minister from 1957 to 1963, based his philosophy of government on what he entitled in a book, The Middle Way (1938).[/quote]

Modern Usage:

[quote]The term was later used by politicians in the 1990s who wished to incorporate Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan's projects of economic deregulation, privatization, and globalization into the mainstream centre-left political parties (following the crisis of socialism after the fall of the Berlin Wall).

In the last decade the Third Way can be defined as:

"something different and distinct from liberal capitalism with its unswerving belief in the merits of the free market and democratic socialism with its demand management and obsession with the state. The Third Way is in favour of growth, entrepreneurship, enterprise and wealth creation but it is also in favour of greater social justice and it sees the state playing a major role in bringing this about. So in the words of... Anthony Giddens of the LSE the Third Way rejects top down socialism as it rejects traditional neo liberalism."

– Report from the BBC, 1999[11]

A leading defender of the spread of Third Way influence in modern democracies has been British sociologist Anthony Giddens. Giddens regularly expounds on Third Way philosophy through contributions to progressive policy think tank Policy Network.[/quote]

Criticisms:

[quote]Advocates of laissez-faire capitalism are staunch opponents of a mixed economy, even in the weaker form of the "third way." In 1990, after the fall of his country's communist government, Czechoslovakia's finance minister, Václav Klaus, declared, "We want a market economy without any adjectives. Any compromises with that will only fuzzy up the problems we have. To pursue a so-called Third Way is foolish. We had our experience with this in the 1960s when we looked for a socialism with a human face. It did not work, and we must be explicit that we are not aiming for a more efficient version of a system that has failed. The market is indivisible; it cannot be an instrument in the hands of central planners."[33]

Third way is sometimes described as an idea of former social-democrats which replaces socialism with capitalism and a minimum of socialism, and a strategy to bring the social-democratic parties back to power where they have lost elections. For example, Slavoj Zizek argues that the notion of the Third Way emerged as the only alternative to the victorious global capitalism and its notion of liberal democracy when the Second Way crumbled.[34] Critics argue that third way politicians are in favour of ideas and policies that ultimately serve the interests of corporate power and the wealthy at the expense of the working class and the poor. Some also classify the Third Way as neosocialism or "neoliberalism with a social touch".[35][36] In many western nations where social democratic or "socialist" parties have adopted centrist or third way policies or have been seen by some as doing so, many new leftwing parties have been able to attract voters disillusioned with the traditional left. These include The Left Party of Germany (formerly the Party of Democratic Socialism), the Left Party of Sweden, the Socialist Party of Ireland and Sinn Fein, The Respect Party of the United Kingdom, the Scottish Socialist Party, the Citizen and Republican Movement and the Communist Party of France, the Green Party in the United States and the United Left of Spain to name a few.

Charles Clarke, a former UK home secretary and the first senior "Blairite" to attack UK Prime Minister Brown openly and in print, stated "We should discard the techniques of 'triangulation' and 'dividing lines' with the Conservatives, which lead to the not entirely unjustified charge that we simply follow proposals from the Conservatives or the right-wing media, to minimise differences and remove lines of attack against us."[37][/quote]

Needless to say there is new books on my wishlist:

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Third-Way-Renewal-Democracy-European/dp/0745622674/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/175-7584467-5773520]The Third Way - The Renewal of Social Democracy[/url]

and

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Third-Way-its-Critics/dp/0745624502/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b]The Third Way and Its Critics[/url]

Greenland votes for Independence

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:59:02 GMT

Look how far we've come, where independence is an exercise in Democracy in the truest sense and not something that must be fought for.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7749427.stm]Greenland votes for more autonomy[/url]

Sheeot. With all the ice melting, why not. Maybe this rather large, rather sparsely populated island could become a real nation with a real economy that is based on more than just fishing! :)

Yes my friends, we find again that maps are not so much a permanent thing, even in the 21st century.

The dumbest thing ever

frogmanFW — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:32:53 GMT

What is the deal with people's sense of entitlement nowadays??!

Check this out.

Synopsis - a boy named after Adolf Hitler is having a birthday. They go to a store to get him a cake, and understandably the store has a little problem with putting the name verbatim on the decoration.

But here's what gets me - rather than just going to someone willing to do it, the family raises hell and it ends up being a story on the news. How can they possibly act offended at this point? And don't give me that garbage-can B.S. about you're not racist because you let mixed-race kids to the birthday party or you have black friends or whatever. You named one child after HITLER. You named another after the Aryan Nation! So how in the world do you expect that these kids are going to waltz through the world without having people react??!

As a matter of fact, far as I'm concerned it's tantamount to child abuse because these kids are going to have to suffer because of and battle their names until they are old enough to legally change them. It's like naming your kid "f@g" or "p*ssy".

Evolution vs. Biblical Creation

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:17:10 GMT

Ok, I am not trying to start a debate, but if people want to debate, discuss, that's fine, but this webpage is just whack!!!!

[url=http://www.answersingenesis.org/news/scientific_american.asp#r10]15 ways to refute materialistic bigotry: A point by point response to Scientific American[/url]

Alright, this is a very long page, and I didn't even make it all the way through, but there certainly are some choice nuggets in there!!! :w00t:

The Conservative Movement

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 19:40:43 GMT

An interesting article on the Rassmussen Reports website

[url=http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_tony_blankley/to_conservatives_who_are_thinking_about_tomorrow]To Conservatives Who Are Thinking About Tomorrow[/url]

[quote]

Conservatism always has been and always will be a force to reckon with because it most closely approximates the reality of the human condition, based, as it is, on the cumulative judgment and experience of a people. It is the heir, not the apostate, to the accumulated wisdom, morality and faith of the people.

As a force in electoral politics in any given season, conservatism, like all ideas and causes, is hostage to the effectiveness of the party that carries its banner, the candidates and leaders who articulate its principles and programs, and the engagement and spirit of the people who are its natural adherents.

A dispassionate critique of the performance of each of those elements would have to conclude that the core of the conservative people -- our natural adherents -- were inflamed with both passion and knowledge of conservative principles. It was the party and the candidates, leaders and conspicuous advocates (with some honorable exceptions) who failed both in their visions and their performances a cause that yearned to be well-led. [/quote]

O'Reilly today mentioned that polling shows roughly 34% of Americans are Conservatives. If we hold that to be accurate than whomever purports to carry the banner of Conservative ideology would have to forge a coalition beyond the conservative base. From 1980 onwards, for about 25 years or so, The Republicans did this effectively. But in the last 8 years or so, they also several damaged their brand. As so many folks say, they went to Washington to change Washington, but Washington changed and corrupted them. So what is next? What is next for the Republican party and the Conservative movement in America? I don't presume it to be dead. But today, in 2008, it is not in good shape.

Nevada gets screwed

frogmanFW — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:45:23 GMT

Ok, so I've heard of this a few times but I never actually took the time to look into it until now. I'm probably a bit behind so feel free to ignore.

If I were Nevada, the Yucca Mountain issue would be grounds for secession. Delays or not they're basically going to at some point get nuclear waste forced down their throat. They make good reasonable arguments why they don't want it, I mean - besides on principle alone. The governer objected when the law was passed, but Congress overruled him. The transport of this waste will be a hot button issue as well. Railways or roads are the two options, with either one having great potential for disaster. However, transportation will be an issue in any movement of this waste.

I have two questions about this. First, at what point do states' rights get trampled on so badly that they are forced to do something drastic - if nuclear waste won't do it, what will? Second, don't we have anywhere better to put this other than about 100 miles from Las Vegas? I mean, there's a lot of nice tundra up in Alaska...

So.....

Roadkill — Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:30:51 GMT

[b] -I'm going to tackle a topic in this thread that might offend greatly those who read it, however I do feel that it is necessary for me to say all this. The topic is religion, and I am not inclined to be be either respectful of it nor politically correct when discussing the matter. You've been warned.[/b]
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-Let me first be honest with you, I see religion as a malevolent force in society, divisive and destructive. I also see people who are religious to be, well there's no other way to put this; stupid. I will now tell you why I feel this way.

-There are multitudes of religions around the world and all profess to be the true religion, none of which are. The very notion of religion should be absurd in an enlightened society but for some reason people still cling to the notion that there's some all-powerful diety floating about in the sky dictating our lives, that reason escapes me. When several groups state that they follow the true path, all at the same time, the only thing that can come of it is division and destruction, it is evident for those of you who have studies but a little history. The events of 9/11 were not purported by someone with a skewed view of their religion, they were actually doing as their religion told them to do. Islam is not a religion of peace, no religion is ever peaceful. One could compare religion to ideological notions such as communism or nationalism but the difference between those and religion is that there is no moral justification to be found for destructive acts.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal

"I think that on the balance the moral influence of religion has been awful. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg

-When it comes to stupidity I do believe that if you came across someone preaching the gospel of Santa with complete conviction, believing fully that Santa was real, you would say to yourselves "Wow, he's stupid." Yes, I just compared whatever diety you follow to Santa. I cannot for the life of me fathom how one could be knowledgable of the world and human history, yet retain ones religion without embracing complete denial. Do you believe in Zeus? Do you believe in Odin(Wotan)? What difference is the between those two and whatever God you believe in? None. To know of the many dieties man has imagined throughout history and still view religion as faintly credible would to me be an unsurmountable task.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." -- Thomas Paine

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” -- Seneca

-Nothing good has ever come from religion since it's inception, it has held back progress, centuries of wisdom have been burned because they did not support a fictional diety, men have been persecuted for not believing in this fiction and murder on an industrial scale has been commited without repercussion in it's name. How anyone can find solace in such an abomination is unimaginable.

“After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands” -- Friedrich Nietzsche

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -- Stephen Roberts

“There can be but little liberty on earth while men worship a tyrant in heaven.” -- Robert Green Ingersoll

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” -- Thomas Jefferson

-And I do not accept the notion that the inhumane actions taken in the name of god are merely attributed to the men who commanded it for they cannot say that god wills it if there is no religion.

---------------------------------

-I think that's it for now though I may extrapolate on it later on.

EDIT: Oh, and search for "Atheism" on youtube and you'll find many discussions on this topic. You might also want to check out [url=http://www.infidels.org/]Secular Web[/url].

U.S. Federal Reserve

Nuclearcow — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:39:07 GMT

I started to post this in another topic in regards to Bear Stearns and the selective bailout by the Federal Reserve, but as I started pasting lots of quotes, it got quite long and I thought this might be best for another thread entirely. Why not? :P

CNN article "Taxpayers should have something to say about Bear Stearns"
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/21/commentary/bear_bailout/index.htm

From Wikipedia:
[quote]On March 16, 2008, Bear Stearns signed a merger agreement with JP Morgan Chase in a stock swap worth $2 a share, through which both the shareholders and employees were decimated at the expense of maintaining an orderly market for the greater good. In addition, the Federal Reserve agreed issue a non-recourse loan to JP Morgan Chase thereby assuming the risk of Bear Stearns less liquid assets.[/quote]

Thats not the U.S. gov't, I might add, but the privately owned corporation of the Federal Reserve Bank. I've said it here before, but its NOT part of the gov't and the gov't has little say in its operations (Congress can monitor, and could potentially change the Federal Reserve act, and then in effect alter or dissolve it), but thats really about the only say they have in its operations. The President appoints the Board of Governors, so some use that reason to say its only a SEMI-private bank corporation and with that and since Congress COULD change the act, that makes it semi-Gov't too. Its in effect a private organization. If Bush, Congress, etc, doesn't want the Fed. Reserve to cut or raise its interest rates, it doesn't matter... they can do what they want. If they wanted to raise the prime rate 50%, they could do it despite protests. Of course, something that drastic might get Congress to act, but only after the fact. Anyways, isn't it a bit scary, since the Fed Reserve can almost single handedly affect the world's economy one way or another? There's more that many think is fishy, including myself, but its already complicated enough and I don't want to rant TOO much. hehe.
[quote]"The Federal Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities..."[/quote] - Lewis vs. United States 9th Circuit 1992
[quote]"The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies. ...but are independent,privately owned and locally controlled corporations."[/quote] - Lewis vs. United States, 680 F. 2d 1239 9th Circuit 1982
[quote]"The Federal Reserve banks, while not part of the government,..."[/quote] -United States budget for 1991 and 1992 part 7, page 10

If you watched Zeitgeist, they talk about JP Morgan causing (or at least greatly contributing to) the Great Depression and then using it as a reason to start the Fed. Reserve. Its ironic, to say the least, that JP Morgan is the corporation that the Fed. Reserve is hooking up with this selective bailout.

Is it possible that there's something to some of those WACKY conspiracy theories about bankers having always meddled in policies and trying to run things from behind the scenes?

[quote]The banking powers are more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. They denounce as public enemies all who question their methods or throw light upon their crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.[/quote]Abraham Lincoln

Yeah, those are old guys who didn't have our modern Fed. Reserve. What about modern times?

[quote]To the extent that there is a central bank governing the amount of money in the system, that is not a free market[/quote]Alan Greenspan, Sept 2007 on Jon Stewart TV show.

[quote]Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States[/quote]Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AZ)

[quote]This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President Wilson signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill.[/quote]Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913

[quote]We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it.[/quote]Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)

[quote]The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers[/quote]Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)

[quote]The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board asministers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money[/quote]Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1923

[quote]From now on, depressions will be scientifically created[/quote]Congressman Charles A.Lindbergh Sr. , 1913

[quote]Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions.They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers[/quote]Congressional Record 12595-12603. Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932

Surely these are crazed conspiracy theorists. What about from the various Federal Reserve themselves. SURELY they have nothing negative to say about THEMSELVES, would they?

[quote]When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in our account to cover the check,but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money[/quote]"Putting It Simply," Boston Federal Reserve Bank

[quote]Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries.[/quote]Modern Money Mechanics Workbook,Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975

[quote]We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous;if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon.[/quote]Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank

Other interesting quotes:

[quote]Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce.[/quote]James A. Garfield, President of the United States

(President Wilson signed the Fed. Reserve act.)
[quote]I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men.[/quote]President Woodrow Wilson

[quote]History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance[/quote]James Madison

[quote]It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.[/quote]Henry Ford

Would any of the bankers ever say anything bad about it themselves? Maybe feel a little guilty?
[quote]Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits[/quote]Sir Josiah Stamp,(President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain)

[quote]It is a terrible situation when the Government, to insure the National Wealth, must go in debt and submit to ruinous interest charges at the hands of men who control the fictitious value of gold. Interest is the invention of Satan.[/quote]Thomas A. Edison

[quote]By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft.[/quote]John Maynard Keynes (the father of 'Keynesian Economics' which our nation now endures) in his book "THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THE PEACE" (1920).

[quote]I am convinced that the agreement [Bretton Woods] will enthrone a world dictatorship of private finance more complete and terrible than and Hitlerite dream. It offers no solution of world problems, but quite blatantly sets up controls which will reduce the smaller nations to vassal states and make every government the mouthpiece and tool of International Finance. It will undermine and destroy the democratic institutions of this country - in fact as effectively as ever the Fascist forces could have done - pervert and paganise our Christian ideals; and will undoubtedly present a new menace, endangering world peace.World collaboration of private financial interests can only mean mass unemployment, slavery, misery,degredation and financial destruction. Therefore, as freedom loving Australians we should reject this infamous proposal.[/quote]Labor Minister of Australia, Eddie Ward, during the inception of the World Bank and Bretton Woods.

and finally,
[quote]I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.[/quote]Thomas Jefferson
Sorry, Thomas. We allowed that to happen. Even worse... few even care. The ones who do are labelled as crackpot conspiracy theorists because its not on CNN.

I bet you'll never see those quotes on CNN or in your history books.

Corruption runs amok

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:51:40 GMT

And for this year's winner of the "stupid of the year award"

What a f***ing moron.

Obama couldn't have gotten out of Illinois any faster.

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/09/illinois.governor/index.html]Governor of Illinois Tried to Sell Obama's Senate Seat[/url]

[quote]Hours after federal investigators announced they had arrested Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich and his chief of staff on corruption charges, U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald declared Tuesday a "sad day for government."[/quote]

[quote] FBI agents arrested Blagojevich, a Democrat, and his chief of staff, John Harris, without incident at around 6:30 a.m. (7:30 a.m. ET) Tuesday, FBI spokesman Ross Rice told CNN.

Each was charged with a count of conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and a count of solicitation of bribery, authorities said.

The corruption charges were in part related to the selection of President-elect Barack Obama's successor, said the U.S. Attorney's office for the Northern District of Illinois. Video Watch: Fitzgerald discusses the charges »

The Obama transition team is aware that Blagojevich is in federal custody, but has no comment, according to a senior Democratic source.

Fitzgerald said the case required "unusual measures" because of actions Blagojevich was expected to take soon, including filling the vacant Senate seat. "There were a lot of things going on that were imminent," he said.

"We were in the middle of a corruption crime scene and we wanted to stop it," Fitzgerald said.[/quote]

Islamic Banking

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:54:36 GMT

Has anyone ever heard of this system? I have been not been to familiar with it until I read a recent article in the US News and World Report.

[url=http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/12/10/the-rise-of-islamic-banking-in-a-time-of-economic-crisis.html]The Rise of Islamic Banking in a Time of Economic Crisis[/url]

This is specifically looking at Rod Blagojevich ........... :w00t: oh wait I mean the practice of the Islamic Banking in Great Britain.

[quote]The basic concepts of Islamic banking go back 1,400 years, but the world's first modern Islamic bank didn't open until 1975. And the sector didn't really blossom until five years ago, when it was buoyed by rising oil prices and the strengthening economies of Asia's Muslim countries. Sharia law prohibits investing in certain industries or products, including alcohol, tobacco, pork, and pornography. The Koran also forbids usury, so financial transactions are structured to rely on income in the form of rents or profits from the loan, technically not interest. Sukuks, for instance, are a type of Islamic bond backed by ownership of a tangible asset that produces a financial return. Another popular instrument is the commodity murabaha, essentially cost-plus financing, which involves the sale and repurchase of a commodity to fund a loan.[/quote]

[quote]Conservative approach. Islamic banks have avoided the subprime fiasco. "There are no toxic assets," says Natalie Schoon, BLME's head of product development. "As a result, there are no problems with big write-offs. One of the advantages that the Islamic sector has as a whole is that there is still liquidity." That, as well as the conservative nature of its business model, is a big reason that it's attracting more non-Muslim clients. Middle Eastern investors have amassed so many petrodollars they have no choice but to look for opportunities beyond the Persian Gulf region, particularly in the politically stable environments of the United Kingdom and Europe. That's why Islamic banks are setting up operations there. Also, London is attracting those outposts because of Britain's historical links to the region and the strong financial talent pool to draw on. In fact, most of the top executives at the Islamic banks in London are British or European, and they are old hands in City banking. The government's concerted wooing efforts have also helped. "The government is actually supporting Islamic finance," Schoon says. "It's not seen as a threat; it's seen as an opportunity."

As with traditional banks, the Islamic banks in London must meet levels of transparency sometimes lacking in other parts of the world. "Regulation is important," Schoon explains. "Investors like the fact that you are regulated." The London Stock Exchange began listing sukuks this year, and 18 are now trading there, a useful increase of liquidity. The British government, as early as next year, is expected to make the country the first in the West to issue its own sovereign sukuks to raise as much as $3 billion. That should help set a benchmark price and encourage more banks to issue the bonds.[/quote]

[quote]The government's sukuks, which would be the first in the world to be triple-A rated, would also give the United Kingdom an alternative route to raise money from the oil-rich Middle East. The plan is not without critics, however, who claim the government is giving religious-based sharia law official standing. Critics also raise concerns that sukuks could be used to finance terrorism. But Rodney Wilson, an expert on Islamic finance at Durham University, says that's an unlikely scenario. "Most Gulf banks do have fairly sophisticated monitoring systems in place" to ferret out money-laundering, terrorism, or other abuses, Wilson says. The 9/11 terrorists, he notes, used western banks to finance their operations.

A more practical problem is a lack of product standardization. Sharia-compliant financing relies on Islamic scholars to determine if products are in accordance with the Koran. But definitions of what is acceptable can vary greatly, not only from region to region but from bank to bank. Typically, Malaysian scholars tend to offer more flexible interpretations of sharia law than do their counterparts in the Gulf. Each bank has its own board of scholars, and even among the London banks there's no uniformity. Schoon says she's seen deals arranged by rival London banks that BLME's board—which comprises two scholars from the Gulf and two from Asia—would have vetoed.[/quote]

It is quite interesting to read about alternate ways of doing things.

Religulous

Roadkill — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:56:18 GMT

[url=http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/]You heard it here first![/url]

Firearms and Hunting

Scipio Africanus — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 08:36:40 GMT

I'm starting this thread cause we were talking about environmentalism over in Basser's thread on [url=http://1bcciv.com/Topic2234617-56-3.aspx?Update=1]Glass Houses[/url], a thread about poser environmentalism. True to my awe-inspiring tangentialization potential, I somehow managed to get me, Tosk, and Black Owl talking about hunting and rifles in that thread. You see, I have this sense based on several programs and articles I read and heard in the past couple years that, hunting and deer hunting in particular, in the Eastern U.S. has undergone a definite shrinkage. The link to Basser's thread here is, this shrinkage has at least in part been a result of the "Bambi" environmentalism movement. That misguided notion of ecology that killing any animals is inherently wrong, and that the ecological systems that used to include large mammal predators can maintain balance with a lack of said predators operating.

Anyway, this thread is for talking about firearms and hunting . . . or just firearms, or just hunting, or shooting, or whatever! If it goes bang, and you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it, lets discuss it here!

[quote][b]Scipio Africanus (4/1/2007)[/b][hr]I like your position on this Basser! Didn't realize you are a hunter. Old High School buddy of mine back in MO goes hunting with his Dad. I was practically his brother when we were growing up, so I may join them this fall if I can manage to get away from teaching for a long weekend that corresponds to theirs.

What would you guys recommend as far as an inexpensive, but effective deer rifle?[/quote]

[quote][b]Tosk (4/1/2007)[/b][hr][quote]What would you guys recommend as far as an inexpensive, but effective deer rifle?[/quote]

Inexpensive and accurate is pretty easy, there are several sites on the web that have a wealth of such ... the home page of [url=http://www.gunsamerica.com/]GunsAmerica[/url] will give you more links than you will ever follow. Most surplus bolt action military rifles will get the job done cheaply.

Effective is another story altogether!

It depends on what you are going to hunt, (deer is a generic term) terrain, how good a shot you are, your comfort level ... and most importantly what feels good to you.

In New Mexico I hunt elk on vast expanses of open ground I normally use a single shot sharps .50-90 with ST ammo and iron sites ... one shot, one kill.

In the Trinity wilderness I hunt the small coast deer so I use a Winchester 94, .25-35 lever action. Most shots are snap shots at close range, I often need to get off several rounds quickly without loosing the sight picture.

For the big tough mule deer in Nevada with the rolling terrain I use the M14 semi auto 7.62. Plenty of killing power, plenty of range. I like the M14 in the Montana, Idaho area for big game too.

A good thing to remember is that it matters little if you can put 6 rounds in a 2" bulls eye at 25 meters with a scope. In the woods, being able to hit a moving target between 1 and 2 hundred meters is far more important.
Saying that, and having been a hunting guide, I would say that prolly 90% of the game taken is hit while standing still, grazing or drinking, and unaware of the hunter ... or long range shots from a blind with a rest.

The vast majority of AlGores "An Inconvenient Truth" is FUD spewing ... It is not by any means a totally outright lie, it just uses "sound bites" of data to portray a false image to the sheepol. I think Al is just a big name shill, to lend creditability ... much in the same way as Streisand and the rest of the Hollywood crowd.
[/quote]

[quote][b]Scipio Africanus (4/1/2007)[/b][hr][quote]Most surplus bolt action military rifles will get the job done cheaply.

Effective is another story altogether!

It depends on what you are going to hunt, (deer is a generic term) terrain, how good a shot you are, your comfort level ... and most importantly what feels good to you.[/quote]

I'd say I'm above average shot with a handgun. Certainly not a marksman, but above average. If I practiced with it more than once per year, I'd probably have some potential. I haven't fired a rifle in probably 20 years, but back in the day, I was pretty good with it.

This would be white tail in northwest Missouri most likely from a stand with a rest. I'm thinking a surplus bolt action military gun is probably what I'll start with. I just can't decide if I'm actually gonna do it or not. Between work, caving, and life in general, I already got a lot of irons in the fire!

But since I am outdoorsy, and not squeamish about shooting game, and since I know there is a shortage of hunters in the East and too many deer, I almost feel this sort of "duty" as a conservationist to take up hunting. You think Al Gore would understand?[/quote]

[quote][b]Black Owl (4/2/2007)[/b][hr]Scipio, part of my job on the Ranch was to guide hunters and fisherman, hikers, etc. So I'm qualifying this statement. Bolt actions are generally regarded as the most accurate rifles. Since your hunting Mo, the Whitetails there are generally larger and thicker than their southern cousins. I recomend the 30.06, bolt action. Using 150 to 180 grain core lockt bullets. Boat tail. The medium weight bullets are very accurate and carry the punch needed to overwhelm a deers nervous system out to about 100-150 yards. Core lockt bullets expand dependably even through bone. Boat tailing adds to accuracy and bullet speed. (Less drag) My springfield 30.06 in bolt action has taken Elk, Moose, Mule Deer, Whitetails, Coyotes and numerous small vermin. I don't hunt bear because I don't use them. But I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself with a 30.06. Attach a sling and high quality optics such as Redfields 3x-9x variable scope with post and crosshairs and you have a solid all around excellent deer rifle. Practice using the sling as a brace by wrapping it once around the forearm that is extended. The important thing is the quick kill. That should be your very first consideration. As Tosk states, no weapon can make up forr poor marksmanship. Get to the shooting range and practice. Have the rifle bore-sighted first. It'll get you on paper faster. Start at fifty yards. Get zeroed in and comfortable with the recoil. (All deer rifles worth there salt will give you a bump.) Once your comfortable and grouping shots within 1/2 ", the tighter the better, tho driving nail heads isn't nec., move the range to 100 yds. Get comfortable with that and your good to go. Make sure to use sand bags or some other stabilizing device to while shooting. Trying to sight in a rifle offhand is near pointless.

Mo can involve some very long range shooting. So you can get shots beyond 150 yds. I consider the 30.06 a good short to medium range rifle with the bullets mentioned above. You can gain more accuracy by using lighter bullets, such as the 100-120 grain. Bullet speed will also increase keeping the punch needed. But I wouldn't use a light bullet in brush or heavey cover. They are easily deflected. A general rule of thumb. The heavier the cover, the heavier the bullet since heavey cover usually means shorter ranges heavey bullets up to 220 grain work well in heavey brush country, but I would limit them to brush. Try to find out prior to buying your rifle what the cover is you'll be hunting. The 30.06 is a very good all around dependable weapon. The 243 also brings deer down effectively, but is a little light on take down if a deer is pumped up on adrenilin. The 7mm, or 7millimeter Magnum, is a great choice for long range shooting. Out beyond the 150 yd range. but again it is really bullet weight that determines accuracy at certain ranges. The 45.70 has the bullet tragectory of a rainbow using bullets as heavey as 450 grain. Good bear and moose gun, but wouldn't use it on deer. Meat damage from shock at the impact sight is another consideration if your planning to eat it. The heavier the bullet the more shock value, also more bruising of the meat. What most people miss in all this is that bullets kill by creating shock, where as arrows kill by hemmorage. This to with bullets but shock is the first order of bussiness. The 30.30 was at one time the rifle of choice. But I've seen deer go along way before going doiwn, even with well placed shots. Unless your proficient at tracking wounded game I'd stick with the flatter more powerful shock delivering cartridges. If your good with a handgun, you'll be even better with a rifle. Remmington makes a dependable pump rifle in 30.06 that is fast in heavey cover but accuracy diminishes fast with range. I recomend Browning, or springfield. Quality and affordability. Remington makes good utility weapons that stand up to weather and rough treatment. But I'm not as impressed with them as far as dependability. Hope that helps. Oh, stay away from hollow points where fur and thick hides are concerned. They aren't nec. The weight of the weapon is also a factor if your going to be trudging around. Out of a stand or blind, not so much. I like the Mil. rifles except for their weight. Hope this helps. Your looking for a one time buy of an all around rifle. Springfields 30.06 with Redfields variable zoom scope 3x-9x, make sure the scope is side mounted or raised so that you can use the iron sights at closer ranges(they to need adjusting and sighting in.), with a rifle sling. No matter where you go, or what your hunting,(short of cape buffalo and elephants) this rifle will work. The more you use it the more a part of you it becomes. Best of luck to you if you go. Safety first.

hehe, jerm. Where politicians are concerned, my "bubble" is always being burst.;)

Ah the memories Tosk. Whitetails love those river bottoms. I remember well great monsters running over three hundred lbs. Tho I'm more of a stalker (still hunter) and sniper. Taking a big buck out of his bed in the brush was the ultimate challenge for me. I sure miss the tongue and even the musselshell in Montana.

I wanted to mention something as to the duties we all share as conservationists. Very little irritates me more or causes me to loose respect for someone than complainning about the "terrible" hunters. These are the same folks who clear land used by wildlife for food and shelter, too build their impressive houses. And the first ones to cry when the deer and rabbits move in to dine on their landscaping. They are also the first to ignore the devastation and waste brought on by disease caused by overcrowding and malnutrition. They don't want to see or talk about that. It takes a long time for a deer to die of starvation. Many days and weeks of suffering before mother nature eliminates them. Mother nature is a much crueler judge than man is. There is no "Bambi" as far as she is concerned. The weak, young and old, are the first victims of overcrowding. Deer browse as high as they can reach. Leaving the yearlings unable to reach the browse they need in winter. Too anyone who would object to the contents of this thread, I'd say do your homework first. Contact your local Conservation office and get the facts. See for yourself what the reality is. [/quote]

Barack Obama to Resign

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:19:47 GMT

from the Senate.

On Sunday.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have just voted for a quitter!!!!! :w00t:

Ahh the irony...

frogmanFW — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:31:05 GMT

Pirate leader talks smack...

Then

Pirates get outrun by big-*** ship...

I love how the pirate leader says "Americans and British all put together cannot do anything" "All put together?" Really?

The Vice Tax

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:30:59 GMT

An interesting fair and balanced article here.

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/11/13/alcohol.tax.deaths/index.html]http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/11/13/alcohol.tax.deaths/index.html]Study: Paying More for Alcohol Saves Lives[/url]

Yoga is unIslamic???

Locus Coeruleus — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:35:05 GMT

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/22/malaysia.yoga.banned.ap/index.html]Top Malaysian Islamic Council: Yoga is not for Muslims[/url]

You can't make this stuff up.

[quote]"It is inappropriate. It can destroy the faith of a Muslim," Council chairman Abdul Shukor Husin told reporters.[/quote]

Is the faith of a Muslim THAT fragile that doing some stretching and meditation will cause one to stray off the righteous path of God?

I would hazard a guess, no:

[quote]"I am mad! Maybe they have it in mind that Islam is under threat. To come out with a fatwa is an insult to intelligent Muslims. It's an insult to my belief," Putri said.[/quote]

[quote]Recently, the council issued an edict banning tomboys, ruling that girls who act like boys violate the tenets of Islam.[/quote]

Like I said, you cannot make this stuff up.

Was Iraq war really a mistake?

jerm — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:28:03 GMT

[url=http://townhall.com/Columnists/LarryElder/2008/11/20/time_to_reassess_the_iraq_war?page=1]Time to Reassess the Iraq War?[/url]

[quote]Our government dispatched "weapons hunter" David Kay to Iraq, a caricature of whom appeared in Oliver Stone's anti-Bush movie, "W." Kay found no stockpiles of WMD. He did, however, say that Saddam retained the intention and the capability of resuming his WMD program, a resumption that seemed likely upon the removal of the then-imposed economic sanctions.

Kay said he and his team discovered: "A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing (chemical and biological weapons) research. A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of (biological weapons) agents, that Iraqi officials … were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN. Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons. New research on (biological weapon)-applicable agents … and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN. Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation." [/quote]

I know that the war is unpopular and Obama probably got brownie points with some because he opposed the war from the start, but are the net negatives actually greater than the net positives? I know it's impossible to say what could have happened but was it really a mistake to go to Iraq?

Attention: Read Here First

mongoose201 — Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:37:41 GMT

The Politics and Religion forum is now reopened, with a few changes.

First, we'll cover what is the same:

DANGER WILL ROBINSON! There may be FIRE ahead. Unless you are willing to potentially be offended at what you read, DO NOT ENTER THIS FORUM! This forum is intended to house potentially charged discussions, and short of personal attacks, cursing or hate mongering, most anything is allowed to be posted here. Any breach of this will be grounds for an immediate thirty-day ban from the site. This board will not be heavily monitored and it will be up to the members to point out any post that violates the rules set forth in this post.

Any political or religious discussions posted OUTSIDE of the Politics & Religion forum will be moved here. If you post a potentially offensive political or religious post outside of the Politics & Religion forum (such as "Worldly Chatter"), your post will be locked, edited to show you have been banned, and you will be banned from the site for 30 days. Political and/or religious discussions are for the "Politics & Religion" forum ONLY.

If you do NOT agree with these rules, DO NOT ENTER THE POLITICS & RELIGION FORUM. You will likely be offended. If you become offended, you have no recourse other than to leave the Politics forum.

The above rules are in effect, what follows below are the changes.

[red]To post in this board, you will have to be added to the Politics/Religion user group. All members can view this board and all posts within, but only those who have pm'ed myself (or Sean if I don't respond within 36 hours) to be added will be able to post any new threads or reply to existing ones.[/red] If you attempt to do so without being added, you will get an "authorization denied" message. Note: All admin/mods already have access without being added.
Post reports from this forum will be handled differently as well. As was stated in Sean's quote above, almost anything is allowed here (Other than the exceptions above). If you feel that a post is in violation of one of the exceptions above, then use the post report button to report the post. Do not quote the offending post in yet another post and request admin/mod action. Report the post.
When a post is reported, admins/mods will review the post and determine if the post is in violation of the rules set forth. If it's determined to be in violation, then the offending poster will be excluded from the P&R board for 30 days on the first offense, and excluded from the entire site for 30 days upon any second offense.
If the post that's been reported is [i]not[/i] found to be in violation, then the person who reported the post will be excluded from participation in P&R for a period of 30 days. This rule is intended to cut down on frivolous reporting of posts. This forum is meant to have greater leeway in terms of the content that's allowed, and hopefully members can work through issues in a more civil manner than has been displayed in this forum in the past.

This post (along with any amendments made to it by other admins/mods) is the only warning about content in this forum. It is our aim that the only staff involvement in this area will be in discussion of Politics and Religion with our fellow members, and that any official action taken after this time will be in the form of bans passed out to those who violate the rules set forth above.

Thanks

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

Nuclearcow — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:41:14 GMT

Mitt Romney editorial on the New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=2

I still think he's one of a couple of bright spots for the Republican party for the future.

I'm also surprised that the New York Times, which is as liberal as they come, printed anything from a *gasp* Republican. :P

So now it's come, logic undone

-M- — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:55:12 GMT

In time of unbelievable, Obama riding the crust of waves. A skillful surfer with a bit of luck. Make that "a lot of luck". Not so distant is that sandy beach. The wave abaiting, it will be hard for him to relive the rush of that momentous glory. And I concede the 40 imaginary bux to him who stood opposed. The bet was right, anomalies happen not often. Alas they do, or else language would be much duller.

Well, now what? Back to normality? Indeed it should be so. As for the lucky, he's got big shoes to fill. A task that breaks so many. So let us hope that Lady Luck will be benevolent for while longer, so the 1st black should not become the last for many years to come.

NC you won the bet, Congratulations!!! At least I was right about the oil :P

Gun Rush

cleopatra143 — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:25:30 GMT

[b]Fears of a Dem crackdown lead to boom in gun sales[/b]

MIDLOTHIAN, Va. – When 10-year-old Austin Smith heard Barack Obama had been elected president, he had one question: Does this mean I won't get a new gun for Christmas?

That brought his mother, the camouflage-clad Rachel Smith, to Bob Moates Sports Shop on Thursday, where she was picking out that special 20-gauge shotgun — one of at least five weapons she plans to buy before Obama takes office in January.

Like Smith, gun enthusiasts nationwide are stocking up on firearms out of fears that the combination of an Obama administration and a Democrat-dominated Congress will result in tough new gun laws.

"I think they're going to really try to crack down on guns and make it harder for people to try to purchase them," said Smith, 32, who taught all five of her children — ages 4 to 10 — to shoot because the family relies on game for food.

Last month, as an Obama win looked increasingly inevitable, there were more than 108,000 more background checks for gun purchases than in October 2007, a 15 percent increase. And they were up about 8 percent for the year as of Oct. 26, according to the FBI.

No data was available for gun purchases this week, but gun shops from suburban Virginia to the Rockies report record sales since Tuesday's election.

"They're scared to death of losing their rights," said David Hancock, manager of Bob Moates, where sales have nearly doubled in the past week and are up 15 percent for the year. On Election Day, salespeople were called in on their day off because of the crowd.

Obama has said he respects Americans' Second Amendment right to bear arms, but that he favors "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault and concealed weapons.

As a U.S. Senator, Obama voted to leave gun-makers and dealers open to lawsuits; and as an Illinois state legislator, he supported a ban on semiautomatic weapons and tighter restrictions on all firearms.

During an October appearance in Ohio, Obama sought to reassure gun owners. "I will not take your shotgun away," he said. "I will not take your rifle away. I won't take your handgun away."

Gun advocates take some solace in the current makeup of the U.S. Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 this summer to strike down the District of Columbia's 32-year ban on handguns. For now, gun rights supporters hold a narrow edge on the court, but Obama could appoint justices who would swing it the other way.

Franklin Gun Shop outside Nashville, Tenn., sold more than 70 guns on Tuesday, making it the biggest sales day since the shop opened eight years ago. Guns & Gear in Cheyenne, Wyo., also set a one-day sales record on Tuesday, only to break that mark on Wednesday.

Stewart Wallin, owner of Get Some Guns in the Salt Lake City suburb of Murray, Utah, said he sold nine assault weapons the day after Obama was elected. That same day, the gun store Cheaper Than Dirt! in Fort Worth, Texas, sold $101,000 worth of merchandise, shattering its single-day sales record, store owner DeWayne Irwin said.

One Georgia gun shop advertised an "Obama sale" on an outdoor sign, but the owner took it down after people complained that the shop appeared to be issuing a call to violence against the country's first black leader.

The president of a Montana gun manufacturer stepped down last month after word that he supported Obama led to calls for a boycott of the company.

While Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association, attributes some of the sales boom to the tanking economy, he thinks the Democratic sweep is the top reason why guns are suddenly a hot commodity.

"I don't think he'll be able to stand up to that anti-Second Amendment wing of the Democratic party that's just been spoiling for chance to ban America's guns," LaPierre said of Obama.

During the campaign, the NRA warned that Obama would be the "most antigun president in American history." And while Vice President-elect Joe Biden owns shotguns, he has supported a ban on assault weapons and has said private sellers at gun shows should be required to perform background checks.

But Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor who has written a book about the gun debate, said new firearms regulations will be a low priority for an Obama administration and Democratic Congress facing a global economic crisis and two wars.

"Maybe the gun-show loophole will be closed, but not much else," he said in an e-mail. "I'd be surprised, for example, if Congress enacted a new assault gun ban."

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said his organization will continue to press for what he calls "sensible" restrictions — background checks at gun shows, a ban on military-style assault weapons and cracking down on illegal gun trade. He believes he has the backing of the new administration on those issues, but any fears of a broader crackdown are unfounded.

"The one thing that they agree strongly with us on is that it's too easy for dangerous people to get guns in this country," Helmke said. "I guess if you're a dangerous person you might want to run out there and buy some more, but otherwise you should be OK."

___

Associated Press writers Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington, Angela K. Brown in Fort Worth, Texas, Kate Brumback in Marietta, Ga., Joe Edwards in Nashville, Tenn., Don Mitchell in Denver, Matt Joyce in Cheyenne, Wyo., and Paul Foy in Salt Lake City contributed to this report.

Twenty years ago today...

frogmanFW — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:15:33 GMT

More than 900 people died in the most chilling religious cult event in modern times.

Maybe I'm just a bit sick but I think everyone needs to hear what is referred to as the "death tape" at least once in their life. It is 44 minutes of audio encompassing the final meeting in the pavilion at Jonestown.

If you listen, realize that this is not Jim Jones at his most charismatic. This is Jim Jones weak and paranoid at the end. Even then, he stirs the heart, although perhaps not in the way he would early on.

Warning: absolutely bone-chilling audio, especially given the context.

Here.

[b]EDIT[/b] - Ok, apparently my body clock is about 5 days off. It was the 18th of November, 1978, not the 13th. Nevertheless...

Random Election 2008 stuff

Nuclearcow — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:31:27 GMT

I figured I'd start a thread for random discussion and articles on the 2008 U.S. election, since we know now who the 2 big party candidates are.

Have at it!

I'll start. I thought John McCain was rather quiet on his war record before and downplayed and stayed quiet on things that many people could find heroic. His 1st TV ad it out and he's quiet on it no more. Probably good timing.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1OUxBvlLr0[/url]

Also seems smart to me to push the "I hate war" angle since some people are comparing him to Bush and insinuating he's a Republican warmonger or something related.

Another late Veterans Day salute

Nuclearcow — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:28:03 GMT

I shamelessly copied this from my post last year. ;)

----------------------------------------------------

"A professional soldier understands that war means killing
people, war means maiming people, war means families left
without fathers and mothers. All you have to do is hold your
first dying soldier in your arms, and have that terrible futile
feeling that his life is flowing out and you can't do anything
about it. Then you understand the horror of war. Any soldier
worth his salt should be antiwar. And still there are things
worth fighting for."
General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, US Army
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT IS A VETERAN?

He is the cop on the beat who spent six months
in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day
making sure the armored personnel carriers
didn't run out of fuel.

He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five
wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior
is outweighed a hundred times in the cosmic
scales by four hours of exquisite bravery
near the 38th parallel.

She or he - is the nurse who fought against futility and
went to sleep sobbing every night for two solid years in DaNang.

He is the POW who went away one person and came
back another - or hasn't come back AT ALL.

He is the Quantico and Parris Island Drill Instructor who
has never seen combat - but has saved countless lives by
turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang members into
Marines, and teaching them to watch each other's backs.

He is the parade riding Legionnaire who pins on his ribbons
and medals with a prosthetic hand.

He is the career quartermaster who watches the ribbons and
medals pass him by.

He is the three anonymous heroes in The Tomb Of The
Unknowns, whose presence at the Arlington National Cemetery
must forever preserve the memory of all the anonymous
heroes whose valor dies unrecognized with them on the
battlefield or in the ocean's sunless deep.

WHAT IS A VETERAN?
He is the old guy bagging groceries at the supermarket -
palsied now and aggravatingly slow - who helped liberate
a Nazi death camp and who wishes all day long that his wife
were still alive to hold him when the nightmares come
once more.

He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human being a
person who offered some of his life's most vital years in
the service of his country, and who sacrificed his ambitions
so others would not have to sacrifice theirs.

He is a soldier, a savior, a sword against the darkness, and
he is nothing more than the finest, greatest testimony to and
on behalf of the finest, greatest nation ever known.

So remember, each time you see someone who has served our
country, just lean over and say "Thank You."

That's all most people need, and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded or were awarded.