1BC Civ Forums / Off Topic Discussions / More Than a Game, Civ in Real Life / Politics & Religion / More Than A Memory... / Latest Posts

RE: More Than A Memory...

-M- — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:07:02 GMT

Possibility of civilain casualties is one reason soldiers fight fiercely. You cant whip somebody up just with high morals, you knwo.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Locus Coeruleus — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:38:37 GMT

No other arguments here?

RE: More Than A Memory...

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:52:27 GMT

[quote]I actually agree with you Locus.[/quote]

It happens! :D

[quote]Do you think collateral damage is acceptable? That is, we hit strategic targets regardless of the civilian casualties that may occur. I believe this is acceptable but targeting civilians is not.[/quote]

Yes. I will say that I believe it is acceptable, simply because I do not think it is absolutely unacceptable. If, for example, we are targeting a military training complex (or other such thing), there may be civilian employees around, or targeting of high profile enemy combatants may result in the loss of life of civilians in proximity to the target, that may be a result of "war is hell" but certainly not unacceptable, in that we shouldn't not go after the target because civilians might be around.

Generally atomic bombs would be targeting civilians and should definitely be avoided (for that and many other reasons), unless all hell breaks loose, and if that happens then we're all up creek without a paddle anyways, and all bets are off.

RE: More Than A Memory...

jerm — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:58:52 GMT

I actually agree with you Locus. Do you think collateral damage is acceptable? That is, we hit strategic targets regardless of the civilian casualties that may occur. I believe this is acceptable but targeting civilians is not.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:11:19 GMT

What, NC? The past cannot be changed. What's done is done. Just because a despicable practice has worked in the past does not mean it should be employed in the future. Maybe back then the situation warranted bombing civilians, just as AQ felt the only way they could get our attention was to bomb civilians. Note, I am not equating the actions of AQ and the allied forces in WW2, I know that there is a difference in the righteousness of cause, but I still feel that in general, going forward, bombing civilians is a deplorable practice and one that we should definitely avoid, no matter that we are "spreading freedom".

RE: More Than A Memory...

Nuclearcow — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 02:14:06 GMT

You sound like a politician, LC! ;)

RE: More Than A Memory...

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:46:35 GMT

No sir. I am not concerned with what the Allied forces did in WW2. I am looking forwards, not backwards.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Scipio Africanus — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:48:08 GMT

[quote][b]Locus Coeruleus (7/6/2008)[/b][hr][quote]Blowing up civilians is clearly a perfectly legitimate way to win if one is seeking to win for the right reasons.[/quote]

QFE.[/quote]

Are you tellin' me that the Allied strategic bombing programs that devastated civilian populations in Europe and Asia were wrong?

RE: More Than A Memory...

Locus Coeruleus — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 17:32:57 GMT

[quote]Blowing up civilians is clearly a perfectly legitimate way to win if one is seeking to win for the right reasons.[/quote]

QFE.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Scipio Africanus — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 01:04:10 GMT

[quote][b]Nuclearcow (7/5/2008)[/b][hr]Thought this was worth sharing.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7488159.stm]BBC article on "Evolution of a Conspiracy Theory."[/url][/quote]

*yawn*

In this case, what is the clean smooth surface we'd get from Occam's Razor?

RE: More Than A Memory...

Scipio Africanus — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 00:47:24 GMT

[quote][b]Rishbhav (5/1/2008)[/b][hr] . . . Would you support a violent terrorist organization spreading liberal democratic values?[/quote]

In short, and perhaps with a couple caveats here and there, yes.

Primarily I disagree with Islamofascists because they are fascists, and also because they are not religion-state separatists "secularists." Not because they blow up civilians. Blowing up civilians is clearly a perfectly legitimate way to win if one is seeking to win for the right reasons.

Blowing up civilians for the wrong reasons is a nice bonus demerit that "Democro-fascists" like myself can deploy in efforts to undermine Islamofascist efforts, but it is not the primary reason to decimate their arses, and erase all record of their existence from human memory.

BTW, what ever happened to Neutron Bombs? You'd think those things would get more air time these days wouldn't you?

RE: More Than A Memory...

Nuclearcow — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 03:10:48 GMT

Thought this was worth sharing.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7488159.stm]BBC article on "Evolution of a Conspiracy Theory."[/url]

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Thu, 01 May 2008 17:20:19 GMT

Ummm.....I created another thread to debate this point. See "Is Violence.....":D;)

RE: More Than A Memory...

Rishbhav — Thu, 01 May 2008 17:08:56 GMT

I agree with Scipio, I don't want to detract from the remembrance part of the thread, so I'll make this short.

If the object of terrorism is as you say to get global airtime and shift public opinion, does violence have to be involved at all? Take Gandhi for example. His genius was in his grasp on public opinion and how to shift it, yet whenever deaths happened they were usually the fault of the British.

The reason I point that out is to ask you Scipio whether it is the tactics of this kind of pr-terrorism that you object to, or merely the "payload" or the message being purveyed by such tactics. I do agree with BO that in cases of violent terrorism it can never really be supported, but what's your view. Would you support a violent terrorist organization spreading liberal democratic values?

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Thu, 01 May 2008 16:52:48 GMT

Of course that's the case. And I respect you for having the juevos to carry it to 'em. Rage on, I'm beside you.

But, an even more potent response, atleast what I have seen, is that even with Mass Media, and because of it, the pictures of their deeds, only involves the Human Heart deeper. Because we can no longer ignore far away happenings. We are, in a way forced, into facing the issue. If I had not seen the British attacks on video and the devestation I could have hidden my heart better. But to see those conditions. No sane man could have felt anything but contempt for the attackers and great sorrow for the innocent. And while I don't think it's fitting for a ten year old to view these things, the reality is, they do. I give ten year olds more credit. But that derails the intent here. I would just say, let this roll. Better a ten year old see also the good in people, and not just the evil. That is what I would most like this thread to remain. There are plenty of others threads here to define the "Evil". Let's try definning the good just once. See where it goes.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Scipio Africanus — Thu, 01 May 2008 16:35:03 GMT

Great rationale for a thread BO, and I don't want to take away from that.

But one small point of irony. Some thinkers who have analyzed late 20th century terrorism have concluded that, unlike conventional warfare, the point of (some forms of late 20th century) terrorism is not to break the 'enemies' will to fight through actual 'terror,' nor through interdiction of their material, and logistical capacity to wage war or other economic activities.

Rather, the real goal of a lot of it has become to get air-time in global mass media. Air time = awareness; awareness is a medium to alter opinions. Increased awareness of emotive content and without balanced, contextualized, and rational boundaries creates opinions, and divides societies, e.g., some people actual now wonder if we 'deserved' it. Terrorism does not actually claim that many lives. Day-to-day things like automobiles, cancer, and pneumonia claim far more lives, but that is not the real threat of terrorism.

The real threat of terrorism is that it shifts the cultural consciousness of all societies which it impacts, including the 'target' societies, the 'audience' societies, the 'host' societies, and the 'victim' societies. In short, terrorism has become a rather sophisticated means to use eye-catching acts of symbolic and collective violence to raise awareness of this political or ideological position or another. In effect, theatrics coupled with propaganda.

The real goal of terrorist movements like Hamas, or Al Qaeda is to slowly, inexorably and with utmost patience, change the course of political, social and historical developments in their favor. We saw an example of this in the outcome of the Spanish elections immediately after the bombings in Madrid. We saw the potential for similar outcomes in th Kerry-Bush runoff. We see other manifestations of their efforts when people actually begin to wonder "is the U.S. an evil Imperialist presence in the world?" or "maybe Islamofascism really IS justified?"

This is why I feel the role I have too often played on this site is so critical. The real goal of Islamofascist terrorism is to influence the world in its favor, and there are a lot of 10 year olds from all over the world who will inevitably be viewing and perhaps reviewing the words on this site for many years to come.

If the Islamofascist's memes are going to be given air-time, then the rebutting memes also need to be given sufficient air-time that the rate at which people are duped into believing their hatemongering will at least be somewhat reduced.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Thu, 01 May 2008 16:16:28 GMT

Exactly like that and more from the world community. And really. Not sympathy for America. But examples of how the Human heart grows stronger in the face of terrorism. The American heart, the Japanese heart, the British heart, the French heart, the Spanish heart, and the Israeli Heart. Examples of how their hearts rose up in the face of their attackers. Things that lifted them also. In general those things which show terrorists cannot cower the Human Heart and it's capacity for compassion no matter where they strike or how they strike. I'm looking for examples of each and every nation and people afflicted by terrorism, and their own responses, to attacks on them, and how they lifted each other. Please bare with me on this. It is an idea that has only taken root recently. Maybe a more positive approach to terrorisms evils?

I leave this open for text and pics.

Thanks Rabi.:)

RE: More Than A Memory...

RabiAkiva — Thu, 01 May 2008 16:07:21 GMT

Looking for something like this?

[img]http://www.1bcciv.com/Attachment1075.aspx[/img]

It says: anniversary of the disaster, we cry with America.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Thu, 01 May 2008 15:43:36 GMT

Anybody else here have a POSITIVE example of American heart after 9/11? I can come up with atleast a couple hundred and more. Can anyone else? I'm espsecially inviting any input from the over seas section of our community. (Other than, but not excluding Americans) Because I do know that a lot of the world grieved with us, and at that point also resolved to fight terrorism of any nature, or by any source.

ADDIT: I'd also like to see the HEART shown by other countries who fell under attacks. SPAIN, FRANCE, GREAT BRITAIN, JAPAN, ISRAEL, (where it has become a way of life, sadly) etc.

Point being that as awful as the nature of terrorism is, it cannot stomp out the heart.

And let it be known here, my fight is not so much with "Islamic Terrorism", as it is with terrorism in general. I believe it is the single greatest threat on this planet. And I will argue the sanity of it's employment anywhere by anybody. Half of me is Irish. All of me is ashamed of the brutish force employed by the IRA against the Brits. I'm even more shamed to learn that many Muslim terrorists were trained by IRA members, past or present. Just so my own base is clear to all.

RE: More Than A Memory...

cleopatra143 — Thu, 01 May 2008 11:38:20 GMT

It's all well and good to get your point across or defend your point, but lets all please remember that we are friends here. Even though I don't agree with some things Konrad posts, I don't hate him (same goes for other people here I disagree with). If he truly thinks we are imperialists then that is fine. I may think it is rude to insult someone's country like that but It doesn't keep me from sleeping at night. I know things get out of hand sometimes too so lets please just let it go and debate something worth debating without personal attacks and nasty comments.

SA, for what its worth, I respect your opinions greatly so when I see you acting "like other people are acting" it bothers me. I know you are better than that. :P

RE: More Than A Memory...

Nuclearcow — Thu, 01 May 2008 11:31:28 GMT

I'd agree. But how many postings have you made into 'America is evil' or about 'Islamofascism' when the original debators had no such thing in mind? How many have you flung insults in with a "you call it how you see it" attitude?

For what its worth, I read your postings in other debates and know you are an intelligent guy and I tend to agree with most of your postings, or at least a large part of each.

'Nuff said.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Scipio Africanus — Thu, 01 May 2008 08:27:58 GMT

I'm always here to debate important topics like whether or not Islamofascism or the U.S. are evil. If folks don't want to be serious about debating these topics, well: if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I believe you might be mistaking conviction, and seriousness for 'anger.'

I have a conviction to refute any efforts to argue that the U.S. is 'evil' and that Islamofascism is relatively justified. Out of this conviction I have formulated a resolution that I will engage in any thread on this forum that involves that sort of rhetoric. If you compare my posting history with that of other folks, I believe you will note: it has been a long time since I _started_ a polarizing discussion of this sort.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Nuclearcow — Thu, 01 May 2008 04:16:14 GMT

Its hard to tell who you're upset at, Scip. It sounded similar to some of your previous postings to myself and LC (though usually not as harsh as the above), so I did think you were including myself again. From Cleo's "huh?" response, I'd bet I wasn't the only one that thought that. If that was incorrect, I am sorry for my assumption.

I remember a few months ago posting somewhere that I thought your postings of late were much more light-hearted than normal and made a joke asking who the new lady in your life was. Now in your postings of late, it seems like you're usually angry and I might say antagonistic, but I'm sure you'd disagree.

I have my own faults to play in this, but it seems like once in a while, this P&R forum gets a couple people who start making more insults than debate, and slowly but surely the participation in threads diminish.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Scipio Africanus — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:03:54 GMT

[quote]May we all become as wise, humble, loving and tolerant as you, Scip. You teach sociology to our youth too? How encouraging![/quote]

Did you perceive that what I said was a reference to you Nuke? If so, I'm curious to hear why?

Is it because you are the sort of pacifist who would have been calling for the appeasement of the Euro- and Asian-fascists in 1939?

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:56:38 GMT

I agree Nuke. The amount of heart and compassion equally great. I know American's aren't perfect, and all of our dirty laundry airs to the world because we are an open people. But things like this help to remind me that we do have a very large heart as one people. We do care. And we do desire peace. But not at the expense of all we have fought for. I'm not speaking of our Government. I'm speaking of the average American.

ADDIT: Our leaders need to be more mindful of who they represent and how they represent us. And when we vote this year, let us keep that in mind.;)

My sincere thanks to whomever rearranged the pics. :D

RE: More Than A Memory...

Nuclearcow — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:34:55 GMT

[quote]. . . many of you disgusting big brained apes are truly repugnant to me, and I sometimes wonder based on your irrationality, your hubris, your ideological myopia if you actually deserve to inhabit that human form that fate has seen fit to provide you with. May you get all which you deserve . . .[/quote]May we all become as wise, humble, loving and tolerant as you, Scip. You teach sociology to our youth too? How encouraging!

Mr. Owl, I particularly enjoyed those cool pics of the semi-truck painting. Thats a lot of time, effort and money someone put into a rolling memorial. Pretty darn cool, I think.

RE: More Than A Memory...

cleopatra143 — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:36:43 GMT

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:04:30 GMT

:blush: Sorry. The stretching out thing makes it even more miserable. If a MODcan solve that I'd sure be obliged.

RE: More Than A Memory...

jerm — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:55:55 GMT

Great wall of text Black Owl. ;)

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:29:11 GMT

I want to reply with some things here that you bring up Scipio. Very valid points you raise in a heart felt manner. And to such an extent that I'm not really sure how I'm going to do it. That was a very powerful post.

I suppose firstly I'd say, I know, or I think I know RK was reminding me that others suffer as well. And I want him to know I'm not taking away from that. I am only spotlighting this, because I was speaking of this present. This era. This current threat, not just to the US, or France, or Spain, or Great Britain, or Japan. But a point occurs to me in reading what you posted Scipio, that history does tend to repeat itself. I wish RK had posted more text along with that. Could very well be what he is saying. In anycase, if I remember my history, many in Europe thought Hitler would stop with Poland, and were prone to look the other way. Even the US. Churchhill I believe was one of the few with great wisdom and foresight to see that Hitler had no intention of stopping before achieving world domination. In his mind Hitler had that right. Fascism.

Hitlers right to the world was genetics based. A falicy to be sure. An excuse to slaughter millions. But when I see the videos smuggled out of Pakistan, and pay close attention to the Iranian President I hear the same overtones. The same words in a different context. Religious right to the world. Even the same reasoning of the Catholic Church during the Crusades. Do I believe they are all equally dangerous and a threat to individual freedom? Yes. We already have many liberty's and freedoms being eroded here in the US because of this war. Because our current adversaries wear no distinguishing clothing, they hide among our populace, everyone is now suspect. We watch our neighbors more closely. An unattended package becomes a bomb. A ride on a plane to visit family or conduct business becomes a nightmare of uncertainty. And on and on. So the damage is already being done. Many countries have dealt with these fears, including the USA. We had a Civil War that had it's own unique forms of terrorism.

One should be very aware that the current threat IS global. It won't stop because Israel ceases to exist. It won't end because the United States converted under a Fundimentalist yoke of terrorism, and proxy wars started by Syria or Iran. It won't stop if even the whole world converted. Why? Because this is a war for world dominance and power under the guise of religion. Under the guise of, "GOD tells me it is my right. And killing those who have not raised a hand against me is okay, if I percieve them to be pigs, "infidels." While "Pig-dogs" and "Infidels", terms that have been used, even in these forums to descibe Americans. It should be remembered these terms are generic. And used to describe any hinderence(including other, more peace adhereing Muslims) to Militant Islamic growth. That is what I have learned here.

My mind has been open to any reasonable discourse or debate on the subject, in the interest not only of tolerance, but that I might actually learn something. Atleast the heart of another people. But in recent days the propaganda, side stepping and disinformation I've seen spread across these pages has caused me to step back. And think to myself. There can be nothing more to learn from that source. So I look for other more reasonable voices. Those I can listen to and not wonder if the meds ran out. I learned much from Locus about the Muslim faith. His balanced replies to me in previous posts, and PM's caused me to be very thoughtful, and I could find tolerance for another's views. Psweet was another. Niether had to insult, badger, bait, or threaten me to come to an understanding. Not full agreement, no. But understanding and an ability to listen for more.

If that were the case in the world today, there may have been no need to paint that truck in rememberance. No need of the hundreds of thousands, millions of memorials, great and small, across the whole world for those who died in conflicts arrising from the twisted views of a few. And in all fairness, I do not leave certain US leaders and organizations out of that contempt. But somewhere a line needs to be drawn. This is as good a place as any in time. It's already too late for too many innocents.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Scipio Africanus — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:42:54 GMT

I think maybe what Roadkill is implying--and correct me if I'm wrong here Roadkill--is that the suffering of Americans in 'The War On Terror' is trivial compared with the suffering of the rest of the world, for example the suffering of the Brits in the Blitz.

The logic here has a definite allure. "True" suffering only occurs once the forces of evil have had sufficient time, and opportunity to amass their destructive capacities fully, and subsequently are able to unleash on unsuspecting innocents with massive levels of devastation (e.g., the blitz). A small, or one might say incipient, level of devastation such as that unleashed on the U.S. by the forces of Islamofascism in their incipient stages of development cannot compare in its scale, and therefore is trivial by comparison. Since it is trivial, it deserves to be dismissed entirely as being a fabrication of propaganda. After all, we probably deserved it; and "Lord knows," with all our long-legged expeditiousness around the globe and haughty imposition into the affairs of people everywhere we must certainly have been "asking for it?"

In order for us Americans to be able to get up on our soap box and preach about the horrors of war, like our European cousins are so uniquely qualified to do, we must first WAIT to let the forces of Islamofascism grow, marshal themselves into a truly fearsome and potent force(s) . . . then wait a bit longer to let them actually mobilize the social will of entire nation(s) state(s) behind their hate. Then wait a bit longer to allow them to actually move incrementally into geo-political position to begin taking by force that which they state they are entitled to in rhetoric (e.g,. expunging the 'Zionist' pestilence from the 'Holy Land,' or all 'infidels' out of their sacred homelands, etc.). Once they have really got themselves well in order, amassed huge social followings, and terrifying military force, and are beginning to use it, THEN we can start to talk about the short-sightedness, the complacency and irresponsbility of our right-wing and isolationist leaders for having ignored the problem for so long while it built up slowly and steadily into a nightmare for future generations to cope with, and mourn.

Once they are unleashing holy terror of a truly massive scale on us, let us say comparable in scale to the Blitz (or perhaps in an era of plentiful nuclear armaments much worse?) THEN we will have a basis to feel melancholy, or perhaps combative self-defensiveness, and to actually take steps to fight back.

Not before however.

We must show the restraint and insight of our European elders, and never fight back until it is too late to actually win.

. . . many of you disgusting big brained apes are truly repugnant to me, and I sometimes wonder based on your irrationality, your hubris, your ideological myopia if you actually deserve to inhabit that human form that fate has seen fit to provide you with. May you get all which you deserve . . .

RE: More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:01:35 GMT

YES RK, another not to be forgotten.

RE: More Than A Memory...

Roadkill — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:00:58 GMT

London Blitz
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/LondonBombedWWII.png/800px-LondonBombedWWII.png[/img]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/NA-306-NT-3163V.jpg/768px-NA-306-NT-3163V.jpg[/img]
[img]http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=96086&rendTypeId=4[/img]

More Than A Memory...

Black Owl — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:38:47 GMT

In recent threads I've delved into here in P&R, I've found myself in much defense of American values. Some have made me think harder on some issues. Others are nothing more than trumped up BS, to get attention to an endless debate.

Today I ran across this. I wanted to share this, for this reason. I don't believe that some others in the world, can understand the depth we Americans feel the events of 9/11. They can't or won't understand it was "An Act Of War". "They" seem to view it soley as a way to bring attention to "Their" plights. We see it, (the majority), as murder in cold blood.

In anycase, I found this "Grass Roots" example of the American heart. If there are any doubts as to how the "common" feel here in the US of A. This should help.

From this...

www.jeffiscool.com

Since I see so many links to Anti-American sources, I believe I have a right, and responsibility to answer with some of my own Pro-American sources. But I will not resort to vague, illogical refrences, and opinions disguised as facts(statistics). This is the reality. This, illustrates our sorrow, our pride, and compassion. It has been called arrogance.

I do apologize for the stretching of the page. No matter how I load the images, they stack in their own fashion in the preview.

[red]This should be better as far as the page stretching is concerned-mongoose[/red]