1BC Civ Forums / Off Topic Discussions / More Than a Game, Civ in Real Life / Politics & Religion / How Healthy is John McCain? / Latest Posts

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Comedy Dave — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:52:25 GMT

He crossed the road to avoid the big red X.... :P

EDIT: Scratch that... seems to be working now.

So he crossed the road to avoid the intermittent big red X... :P

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Roadkill — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:24:52 GMT

[img]http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/political-pictures-john-mccain-sharpie-clay-tablets.jpg[/img]

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Sun, 25 May 2008 03:52:47 GMT

Chiken crossed the road bcz it was unawera that cars travel @ high speeds

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Tosk — Sun, 25 May 2008 01:40:01 GMT

our current presidential hopefuls answer the age old question ... "Why did the chicken cross the road?"

BARACK OBAMA:
The chicken crossed the road because it was time for a CHANGE! The chicken wanted CHANGE! The American People want CHANGE!

JOHN McCAIN:
My friends, that chicken crossed the road because he recognized the need to engage in cooperation and dialogue with all the chickens on the other side of the road.

HILLARY CLINTON:
When I was First Lady, I personally helped that little chicken to cross the road while under sniper fire. This experience makes me uniquely qualified to ensure -- right from Day One! -- that every chicken in this country gets the chance it deserves to cross the road. But then, this really isn't about me ...

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

jerm — Sat, 24 May 2008 12:24:15 GMT

Once again, I didn't say you shouldn't raise the sales tax, I thought you were giving a hypothetical example. I suppose other possibilities would be to spend the money they already have more wisely. Perhaps cut something which is less useful. I suspect the underlying problem is corruption. Not personal corruption, just corruption in the civ3 sense. Money is being wasted. Taxing and spending is redistributing wealth... period. That is a leftist thought. I tend to think that toll roads aren't a bad idea, at least for freeways. Then again, I'm not terribly opposed to paying for roads with tax dollars either. It helps commerce and is probably one of the few things we should pay for with tax money. Hey, even I am not an absolutist.

Perhaps a more accurate way to define it is with a spectrum. There's extreme right ideology and extreme left ideology. Extreme Left wants to maximize the redistribution of wealth and heavy government control, like communism, and Extreme Right wants no redistribution of wealth and very little government control as in Libertarianism. Mind you, the extreme right is also associated with other non-economic factors like fascism and I'm not really going into that (apples and oranges). I used to have much more Libertarianistic views but I've shifted a bit and realize there are some things the government has to pay for (like roads) and the money has to come from somewhere. Still efforts should be made to minimize redistributing wealth, depending on how far to the right you are. Any questions? :P

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Fri, 23 May 2008 19:50:28 GMT

Thanks for breaking down liberalism vs. leftism, btw, jerm. Can you think of maybe.... say Teddy Roosevelt as a non-leftist liberal, at a time when liberalism was clearly not so rooted in the domain of the leftists?

[quote]Raising sales tax to fix roads, if other things aren't considered, is leftism. Leftism would simply state that raising taxes is the solution while there may in fact be a better one which doesn't involve taking more of the people's money. Maybe it is necessary but maybe not.[/quote]

Ok, can you help me think of a better solution, because I am open to that?! No matter which way I slice it, someone has to pay for it. What say we get a grant of some federal monies to fund road repair, well in that case, you get tax payers who don't live in the area funding it, because it's as clear as day the federal government is in debt and would not be paying for such a project with money in the bank. On the otherhand, a local sales tax hike would foot the bill on the people who live in the area and use the roads on a daily basis. A toll road? There are no toll roads in the area, and I doubt there ever will be. A community fund raiser? Would that be any different in practice than a tax? And besides this area isn't exactly teeming with wealth, so I doubt most people would voulantarly give lump-sums of cash for such a project, though I could be wrong.

Now on the other hand, you sap 'em slowly a quarter of a cent on the dollar, that there is the beauty of a small tax hike! You won't feel it in your wallet as much, if at all, and as such you'll never know what hit ya! :w00t:. You could always try and appeal to a philanthropist to fund the project, but come on, we're talking about the Mississippi Delta here, and you never want to have to beg for money, esp. when it concerns such a fundamental thing as the quality of the road surface. Surely there's got to be a way to get these roads fixed! I'm going to talk to the chamber of commerce about this, and I'm sure this is nothing new to them, but all it will take is a little innovation!!!!

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Fri, 23 May 2008 14:39:24 GMT

Hey, They're not mine. They may all not be JFKs, although they may indeed be, but they're definitely not mine! ;)

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Black Owl — Fri, 23 May 2008 12:34:59 GMT

I'm borrowing some of those for a time Locus. Hope you don't mind.;)

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:24:33 GMT

!Viva trecientos!

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:16:29 GMT

Thanks, J.

[quote][b]jerm (5/22/2008)[/b][hr]JFK was a liberal and Ronald Reagan was a conservative yet they weren't much different other than the time in which they governed.[/quote]

Very interesting that you'd mention JFK, because, as you know, his most famous soundbite:

"And so, my fellow americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."

Is anything BUT what we would think of as "liberal" by today's sense of the word.

he also has a few other quotes that one might mistake for being "conservative values" in todays climate:

We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.

"A nation which has forgotten the quality of courage which in the past has been brought to public life is not as likely to insist upon or regard that quality in its chosen leaders today - and in fact we have forgotten."

"The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."

"There are risks and costs to a program of action. But they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of comfortable inaction."

"The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all."

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were.

"The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger - but recognize the opportunity."

"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."

"We cannot expect that all nations will adopt like systems, for conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth."

"I look forward to a great future for America - a future in which our country will match its military strength with our moral restraint, its wealth with our wisdom, its power with our purpose."

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility - I welcome it."

"Israel was not created in order to disappear - Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom."

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

"Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future. "

"Once you say you're going to settle for second, that's what happens to you in life. "

"The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission. "

"The tax on capital gains directly affects investment decisions, the mobility and flow of risk capital... the ease or difficulty experienced by new ventures in obtaining capital, and thereby the strength and potential for growth in the economy. "

"There is always inequality in life. Some men are killed in a war and some men are wounded and some men never leave the country. Life is unfair. "

"Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly. "

"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."

Ok, I got sidetracked by all these quotes, I really have not verified if all these are actually JFK quotes, so that is my caveat, but I will also say that this doesn't exactly sound like one of them "tax and spend" "free welfare for all" liberal democrats from New England, does it? It's too bad he was gunned down. :( . I really out to read more about this man. And I'll have to respond to the rest a bit later. ;)

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

jerm — Thu, 22 May 2008 12:58:03 GMT

JFK was a liberal and Ronald Reagan was a conservative yet they weren't much different other than the time in which they governed. What's liberal today is conservative tomorrow. I think it's good to have an open mind about things generally speaking and knowing that sometimes you have to change things to make them better is a liberal value. Leftism does not mean change for the better, rather it is a political ideology with core values attached, such as an equal distribution of wealth and less private property. Essentially, take from the rich to give to the poor. You may think this is a good thing (I don't) but that's not the point. Leftism is kind of set in stone while liberalism is okay with change. Currently, liberalism is "changint" to the left end of the spectrum. John McCain is a liberal because he is willing to listen to/compromise with the leftists. Hillary and Obama are just plain leftists, though obviously there are degrees.

Government mandated health care is a liberal take on a leftist aim.

Raising sales tax to fix roads, if other things aren't considered, is leftism. Leftism would simply state that raising taxes is the solution while there may in fact be a better one which doesn't involve taking more of the people's money. Maybe it is necessary but maybe not.

Gay marriage tends to be supported by leftists but I'm not so sure it's technically in that camp. Definately liberal though.

Today Liberalism is associated with the left but it doesn't have to be. I think in my description of McCain, I was probably not thinking it through this carefully though and I just meant, he's not hugely conservative.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Thu, 22 May 2008 09:57:55 GMT

I dont get their marriage fuss either. Marriage is such union as to give the man a voice form woman & the woman a voice from man. Population devided 50/50, & u can never pretend to understand the opposite sex, bcz cognitive processes are completely different. Thats where marriage helps, its a union of opposites to more effectively deal w/the society @ large. But gay marriage? I think they just got too cought up in the legalese.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 22 May 2008 09:47:12 GMT

Haha. Good point! :w00t:

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

RabiAkiva — Thu, 22 May 2008 09:39:46 GMT

[quote][b]Locus Coeruleus (5/22/2008)[/b][hr]What about allowing gay marriage. That certainly seems like liberalism to me, but the conservative demons of the far right have made it out to be leftist degeneration of family values, when in fact there is no basis in fact for such degeneration of much of anything except 'live and let live'.[/quote]

I think real liberalism is to abolish marriage altogether. I think if gays desperately want to get 'married', they are hopelessly conservative.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 22 May 2008 09:30:47 GMT

Just so I know what you are talking about jerm, define leftism. We need to be on the same page here.

For example,

Is government mandated universal health care (and note, I am not implying a single payer system) liberalism, or is it leftism? Or is liberalism simply letting people choose whether they want to have the insurance or not.

Is raising the sales tax ever so slightly, such as less than half a percent, so that THEY COULD FIX THE BLEEPING ROADS in the Mississippi Delta liberalism or is it leftism?

What about allowing gay marriage. That certainly seems like liberalism to me, but the conservative demons of the far right have made it out to be leftist degeneration of family values, when in fact there is no basis in fact for such degeneration of much of anything except 'live and let live'.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Scipio Africanus — Wed, 21 May 2008 22:04:49 GMT

[quote][b]cleopatra143 (5/21/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Locus Coeruleus (5/21/2008)[/b][hr] . . . Where are the Independent professors?[/quote]

*Raises hand*

"Here!"

The problem is that being a liberal is currently fashionable. That will change after the next major attack. American political sentiments have always been variant but cyclical.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

jerm — Wed, 21 May 2008 20:05:32 GMT

My point was that Liberalism isn't bad but leftism is!:)

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

cleopatra143 — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:37:55 GMT

[quote][b]Locus Coeruleus (5/21/2008)[/b][hr]It's a hard truth to swallow, isn't it NC! :P[/quote]For sure. I sometimes find my professors hard to listen to. Why is it that in colleges you always have one extreme or the other? Where are the Independent professors?

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:51:44 GMT

It's a hard truth to swallow, isn't it NC! :P

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Nuclearcow — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:30:11 GMT

The world shifting more liberal? Can we go back to talking about your visit-count instead? :D

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 21 May 2008 14:14:21 GMT

Man way to derail a thread M. Sorry no, my post count, I don't spam like you so it will never get that high. I don't really care about how many times I visit the site, except that it is my expressed goal to have 1 million visits to this site before 2050 AD. :w00t:

Actually, for a while there when I was in grad school, using a MAC computer and when Sean switched the format of the forums, it would log a visit for me everytime I navigated from one thread to another, one forum to another, hell when I hit refresh button it would add visits, so yeah, it's not nearly 15 visits per day, but sometimes it seems like that. Now that I am in the working world and cannot logon all day long like when I was in grad school that should give some folks like Mongoose or TC a chance to catch up with me!

And jerm, yeah, you know, ever since about 1500AD we have been on a steady march towards greater and greater liberalism in our societies, so it only makes sense that we would have a presidential election between a liberal Republican and a social-liberal Democrat. Viva El Liberalismo!!!! :w00t:

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Wed, 21 May 2008 11:29:53 GMT

Let's see 4.5 years thats like 1,600. Devide 25,000, thats like 15 visits. 5 min per each, thats like 75 mins per day. Hmm... not that bad, I spend more time than that per day on this site :P

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Nuclearcow — Wed, 21 May 2008 11:18:39 GMT

LC, do you just sit around clicking refresh all day long? :P

McCain. We can at least agree that he is 'left' for a Republican, isn't he?

Those other 2 guys are fairly socialist for liberal Democrats.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

jerm — Wed, 21 May 2008 02:12:42 GMT

Locus, I said he's a liberal, not a leftist. There is a difference... though I know you jest.;)

Wow, that is wierd. I remember your visits being high but crap, is that real?

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Tue, 20 May 2008 20:06:19 GMT

25,000+ visits! LC do u got a bot that kinda automatically revisits this site? U gotta improve ur posts/visits ratio, u lagging all of us horribly in that department. Slacker ;)

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

cleopatra143 — Tue, 20 May 2008 19:53:55 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (5/20/2008)[/b][hr]Dont read propaganda. Live ur life as best as u can understand how to live it. Vote Republican. U'll do o'rite :P[/quote]Eh, I'd rather not vote anymore than vote Republican or Democrat. We need to throw out political parties altogether. They are rubbish.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Tue, 20 May 2008 19:38:16 GMT

Dont read propaganda. Live ur life as best as u can understand how to live it. Vote Republican. U'll do o'rite :P

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 20 May 2008 18:41:38 GMT

[quote] It's a liberal Republican v. two Socialists.[/quote]

Is McCain a liberal though?

[url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/04/03/so_you_want_to_be_a_mccain_democrat/?p1=email_to_a_friend]So You want to be a McCain Democrat?[/url]

:w00t:

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

jerm — Tue, 20 May 2008 12:54:23 GMT

I don't know that McCain won't be a leader. He's not particularly charismatic but he's not one who folds under the pressure... at least visibly. I do agree that I'm not super impressed with any of the candidates' leadership qualities.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Scipio Africanus — Tue, 20 May 2008 08:12:55 GMT

[quote][b]Tosk (5/20/2008)[/b][hr]The president only has true power only when he is backed by the people.

The *leaders* are almost always backed by the people, and can overcome congress and the media ... Ronald Reagun was the last to do it with leadership ... before him JFK had it ... he just did not live long enough to get any of his programs put into effect.

I do not see a leader in American politics at the present time ... not even Paul ... if they could get together I believe McCain-Paul would be a solid ticket. All else being equal the 8% Paul supporters would likely make the differance. Somewhat similar to the Reagun democrats or Hubert Humphrey with LBJ.

I fear that McCain will fold to party pressure and let them choose ... a sure sign of lack of leadership.[/quote]

QFE, but lets hope your fears prove ungrounded.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Tue, 20 May 2008 05:55:19 GMT

I'ma leader, vote me :P

Disclaimer: Absence of clear leadership is the best time to advance one's own selfish agenda. Example: Obama & Clinton. Clinton is inellectable exactly bcz of her "strength". She has been in the oval office already as co-Presidant. Anyone who dont agree w/this refer to marriage conventions & laws. In American soceity Husband & Wife share equal everything. So she has already been a president (not directly but by default) & therefore is inelectable due to presidential term limitations. Anyone objecting to this, let them rewrite how marriage works in this country, & I will w/draw me objection. Obama is a shameless opportunist, who dont got a clue (trust me he don't). For both'o them wut matters more is another trophy on their walls (trust me I know this too). So ye McCaino will win by default, bcz even though individuals are infinetly gulliable (read that in the for of an Eistanian quote that RK has) individually, when u combine them into masses, wut comes out is pure rationality. Yep social physics dont make much sense, but it works right every time all of the time.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Tosk — Tue, 20 May 2008 04:49:38 GMT

The president only has true power only when he is backed by the people.

The *leaders* are almost always backed by the people, and can overcome congress and the media ... Ronald Reagun was the last to do it with leadership ... before him JFK had it ... he just did not live long enough to get any of his programs put into effect.

I do not see a leader in American politics at the present time ... not even Paul ... if they could get together I believe McCain-Paul would be a solid ticket. All else being equal the 8% Paul supporters would likely make the differance. Somewhat similar to the Reagun democrats or Hubert Humphrey with LBJ.

I fear that McCain will fold to party pressure and let them choose ... a sure sign of lack of leadership.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

jerm — Tue, 20 May 2008 02:21:13 GMT

I'm not so excited about McCain either to be honest. I think he's got a shot at winning but I don't particularly like him much as a candidate. Tosk put it pretty well. It's a liberal Republican v. two Socialists. I can't in good conscience not vot for the lesser of two... well... whatever you wanna call it (can't really call McCain evil ;)). I think McCain would bring a level of dignity and respect back to the office which it desperately needs at the moment. The real power is in the Congress and more focus should be given towards putting in good, honest Senators and Congressmen. I know, not such an easy task. :satisfied:

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Black Owl — Tue, 20 May 2008 00:11:30 GMT

The Huckster was talking today on CNN about the possibilty of becoming McCain's running mate. So if McCain's health fails.....

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Nuclearcow — Tue, 20 May 2008 00:09:07 GMT

I haven't heard much of anything on the news/radio but stuff like 'the Republican party is dying' and thats sort of stuff. Almost like McCain is irrelevant or something.

Democrats fighting amongst themselves... becoming more polarized amongst themselves... huge divides amongst the sexes on which candidate to vote for... huge racial divides on who to vote for (Other than the obvious, including Mexicans massively favoring Clinton), etc, etc. I don't think the Republicans are the only ones hurting. :P

If anything, people are more disgusted with politics lately, I think. Both parties.

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

-M- — Mon, 19 May 2008 23:10:20 GMT

Are the pollsters saying that he will? Then I am changing my backing :P

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 19 May 2008 20:03:39 GMT

Don't get me wrong Cleo, I would have definitely voted for McCain in 2000, but since then, I don't have much love for the Republicrats or the Democans. Therefore, neither will be getting my support. If you want a write in vote, well, I don't think writing Ms. Cleo would cut it! :w00t:

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

cleopatra143 — Mon, 19 May 2008 19:55:03 GMT

[quote][b]Locus Coeruleus (5/19/2008)[/b][hr][quote]He will[/quote]

I'm not so certain that he will, M. Regardless of what the pollsters are saying, I can still see it going either way!

Needless to say, living in Mississippi, it doesn't matter much who I vote for, so I think I am going to vote for the Communist Party candidate! :w00t:

:runs: [/quote]I would really appreciate that write in. :D

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 19 May 2008 18:46:57 GMT

[quote]He will[/quote]

I'm not so certain that he will, M. Regardless of what the pollsters are saying, I can still see it going either way!

Needless to say, living in Mississippi, it doesn't matter much who I vote for, so I think I am going to vote for the Communist Party candidate! :w00t:

:runs:

RE: How Healthy is John McCain?

Roadkill — Sun, 18 May 2008 18:46:46 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (5/18/2008)[/b][hr]BO, he lost that high ground long ago :P.[/quote]

-I [i]am[/i] the high ground.;)