1BC Civ Forums / Off Topic Discussions / More Than a Game, Civ in Real Life / Politics & Religion / You will be assimilated!!!!! / Latest Posts

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Nuclearcow — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:08:31 GMT

It was. ;)

(okay, it still is, but it seemed like a good one-liner response)

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:58:02 GMT

See, cow, the thing about illegal immigrants is.....They're illegal. Sometimes if you or I do something that is illegal, we will get a fine or go to jail.

illegal y que?....

nobody cares!!!!!

businesses hire them!!!!!

the feds support them.

cities do not report them.

Is this a great country or what? :w00t:

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Nuclearcow — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:16:33 GMT

Driver in Aurora triple-fatal is Guatemalan national

"Guatemalan national!?" Surely that means he was a diplomat, right? ;)

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Nuclearcow — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:00:00 GMT

Something the vast large majority of Americans are behind, but yet politicians turn a blind eye to. Something McCain has been very guilty of with his amnesty bill that caused an uproar a year ago or so.

Weird, isn't it?

What if media reported those things like: "Invader Rights Rally" hehehe

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:45:50 GMT

Has Immigration even been brought up at the DNC? Will it be brought up at the RNC? My guess is very little. It's amazing that something so important can be glossed over so royally at major party conventions. I'd argue it's probably the single biggest issue on the domestic front. The economy will fix itself eventually, immigration won't.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Nuclearcow — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:26 GMT

I still see this from time to time and the lack of the dirty I-word (illegal) is constant.

[url]http://www.denverpost.com/politicswestnews/ci_10325314[/url]

Where is the dirty I-word?

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Scipio Africanus — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 06:44:34 GMT

Yeah there is a lot of that kinda thing happening ever since Clinton.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:49:31 GMT

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/05/armenian.valedictorian/index.html]Illegal Immigration takes on many forms[/url]

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:30:15 GMT

[quote]I am saying: "let the empoyer have a say in who he want to hire". If it is a buch of rag tags out of Mexico he want to hire to pick his oranges, let it be so. Why penelize an orange grove owner just because his workforce has to work on the locality. Whereas a telemarketing company can freely outsource all it wants to India. In both cases (mexicans working on an Orange grove & Indians making the telesales) american citizens will loose jobs. So where is the fairness from the orange growers point of view? An employer has to have the right to choose who he wants to employ. By the way minimum wage legislation is way wrong too.[/quote]

You know, it's funny, I seem to recall, NC, I think it was saying something about how the PC machinations are in full force for how to refer to the illegal immigrations, that some even call that migrant workers???

Anyways, I remember learning about, when I was growing up, migrant workers. They weren't illegal immigrants, they weren't even immigrants at all. They were legal workers brought to this country 'from down south' to do seasonal jobs such as agricultural work. This, of course, was at a time when the national unemployment rate was VERY low, and it still might be today, for what it's worth, but Muk, as you say, the farmer could hire the ragtags from Mexico, and there was a legitimate system to do such, and after the season was over, they would take them back home. I don't know if such a thing still goes on, or that all the migrant workers are just over here illegally now, which I doubt, but at least, in the past, there has been such a system in place.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:33:16 GMT

-M-[An employer has to have the right to choose who he wants to employ.]

No they do not. In the interest of National Security(of even greater concern now in light of recent events) of which the US economy is very sensitive because of it's already way to open trade policy(NAFTA), laws are in effect that prohibit the hiring of Illegal Immigrants. In light of recent events I feel those laws are needed. When these laws are circumvented for personal gain security is lost. And I might add they also protect those who would immigrate but do not because of fear of those laws. You said once that "Buyer beware". In this case I double that.

Just a side note. Besides our daily dose of lead from China, we have been also plagued with food contamination which has been traced back to employers of illegal immigrants. If they are willing to break the laws, they are willing also to break the standards of the food supply. IMO.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Scipio Africanus — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:22:52 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (6/4/2008)[/b][hr]I vote for Tosk :)

Scip, where do you get that I am saying standards of living ought to be lowered?

I am saying: "let the empoyer have a say in who he want to hire". If it is a buch of rag tags out of Mexico he want to hire to pick his oranges, let it be so. Why penelize an orange grove owner just because his workforce has to work on the locality. Whereas a telemarketing company can freely outsource all it wants to India. In both cases (mexicans working on an Orange grove & Indians making the telesales) american citizens will loose jobs. So where is the fairness from the orange growers point of view? An employer has to have the right to choose who he wants to employ. By the way minimum wage legislation is way wrong too.

On medicade, instead of commercialization I would rather see a universal health care (not just for the old). This way everybody gets the benefit of their taxes when they need it.

Instead of having a blanket income tax, taxation ought to be done through funds. Health Care Fund, Public Education Fund, etc. And those funds have to disclose their spending for transparency purposes. W/transparent reporting overspending will be minimized. Citizenry will stop complaining that they are paying taxes benefits of which they do not get, etc & so on.[/quote]

Interesting. Don't really have a rebuttal or anything, just . . . interesting.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

-M- — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:00:56 GMT

I vote for Tosk :)

Scip, where do you get that I am saying standards of living ought to be lowered?

On medicade, instead of commercialization I would rather see a universal health care (not just for the old). This way everybody gets the benefit of their taxes when they need it.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Nuclearcow — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 08:53:27 GMT

I liked your speech, Tosk. Might get my vote if you keep that up. ;)

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Scipio Africanus — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:44:40 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (6/3/2008)[/b][hr]Illegal immigration is not the problem. The problem are the laws that limit immigration.

A person acts on his survival instincts. If those instincts tell him to hop the fence, that is what he will do. Each individual is far more nimble than burocracy, so he will find loopholes in any system given enough incentive. The biggest incentive that foreigners have is the fact that Americans are overpaid to the relative cost of living. It is so because the Dollar is the currency of World Trade. To be sure Americans are among the most creative, most innovative people on earth. That comes with wealth and is not a justification for being overpaid. When you are getting paid $6 an hour to flip burgers, & someone else has to break his back elsewhere in the world for $5 for a 12 hour work day, that someone has all the incentives to change his situation. Illigal immigration is not just the Mexicans. There are plenty Chinese, Russians, Philipino, etc. No fence is stoping these people.

Restrictive immigration laws are Protectionism. Protectionism can be the right answer in select times of great strain, but it never is a permanent solution. It is the system that is the problem & not the other way around.[/quote]

I have to say Muk, I re-read this a couple times and I just don't get it. Are you saying that getting rid of any selectivity on who we is legally granted the privilege to migrate to and work in the U.S. is the solution?

I am all for recognizing the reality of globalization and taking proactive steps to respond to it instead of reactive steps. But at a fundamental level, all sovereignties must regulate their populations. Not having any restrictions on immigration would seem to only make things worse.

Fundamentally what this all boils down to is: the world is in reality a smaller and smaller place every year. A journey from Ireland to the U.S. was once a risky, and arduous journey of weeks, that had a pretty good chance to result in death. Now it is nothing, and neither is a journey from the Philippines or Ukraine. The social systems of today were built off of those of yesterday, a time when the world was smaller and the idea that what another guy/family 4000 miles way enjoyed is something you too should be able to enjoy. The problem is in the global homogenization of standards of living without commensurate homogenization in the opportunities to achieve standards of living. The idea that laws against immigration is the solution to this is simply akin to saying: the U.S. standard of living should be lowered so that everyone else's can be raised.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:39:42 GMT

Oh yes, that's my Utopian solution as well :P. I realize this will not likely happen... though it's not too late to get you elected is it? :hehe:

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:37:12 GMT

HOOOOORAH! :D

Really...., it is the answer.

If only it could be done. But the feeders of the "birds" would loose their prey. And I'm afraid the "birds" have no intention of leaving. As seen in their now annual demonstrations of their power. When you feel empowered enough to come out of hiding, even for a day to demonstrate......

More like a scene from Alfred Hitchcocks' "The Birds".

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Tosk — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:28:52 GMT

YES! from the "It's never to early to start on 2008" thread.

[quote]My first campaign speech

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with
seed. Within a week I had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the
table... everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. And other birds were boisterous and loud:

They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food. After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore.

I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and removed the many nests they had built all around the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be ...quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now lets see... our government gives out free food, subsidized housing,
free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a citizen automatically.

Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families. You have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English.

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank speak to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Maybe it's time for the government to take down that darn bird feeder.[/quote]

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:16:32 GMT

So does anybody actually have a good solution other than what is (well, has been) being "sold to us?"

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:09:39 GMT

[quote]So here we are, 20 years later, having much the same debate and being offered much the same deal ... in exchange for the same promises ... largely dependent on the will of another democratic congressional majority ... do you really expect the end results to be any different???

The bill and all provisions are public record ... perhaps reading it would enlighten you as to what is happening all over again.[/quote]

Why Tosk, that is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make.

Thanks. :)

I did say, after all:

[quote]You'd think we'd have learned in the 20 some years that have passed since then, but we just want to repeat history over and over again![/quote]

Lets not let the fact that I shifted the blame around get in the way of what really matters! :)

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Tosk — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:56:56 GMT

LC:
You really need to check the facts before making false accusations.

The the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act legislation was pushed by the Democratic majority in the House and the Select Commission on Immigration and Refugee Policy. President Reagan, said he considered it reasonable to adjust the status of what he was told was a relatively small population.

The act was a three stage program to allow illegals to become citizens after filing the proper paperwork in five years, it also had stiff penalty provisions for businesses employing undocumented workers ... the Republicans demanded this in return for their support of the bill.

From the start, there was widespread document fraud by applicants, unsurprisingly, the number of people applying for amnesty far exceeded projections. And there proved to be a failure of political will in enforcing new laws against employers ... big surprise there huh?

Reagan then came out and said that this was just a congressional amnesty scam after the fact, and some 2.7 million ultimately received citizenship whether they filed the required paperwork or not.

So here we are, 20 years later, having much the same debate and being offered much the same deal ... in exchange for the same promises ... largely dependent on the will of another democratic congressional majority ... do you really expect the end results to be any different???

The bill and all provisions are public record ... perhaps reading it would enlighten you as to what is happening all over again.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:55:41 GMT

[quote][b]Scipio Africanus (6/3/2008)[/b][hr]The problem does not emerge as a result of the invisible hand working its magic, I for one am all for that. Let the competitive thrive, let the non-competitive perish.

That goes for individuals too. Let he who cannot speak the national tongue be self-segregated into social roles of marginalization, low-paying-unrewarding-demoralzing-jobs, enmity, and misfit with the society at large.

The problem then arises: when such misfits number in the 2 or 3% of an entire population of 300,000,000 you have a LOT of misfits.

Suddenly we no longer have an economic issue, but a social-psychological and cultural one.

The [url=http://www.campus-electronique.tm.fr/testfle/]French have a pretty good idea of how to handle it[/url], promote the national language and HIGHLY discourage other languages. For example, the use of Spanish in automatic bank teller machines, telephone trees, etc. Why should they be bothered to assimilate if they are not required to?[/quote]

This is..., I believe the first time I have done this. But in this case...QFE!

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Scipio Africanus — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:52:02 GMT

The problem does not emerge as a result of the invisible hand working its magic, I for one am all for that. Let the competitive thrive, let the non-competitive perish.

The problem then arises: when such misfits number in the 2 or 3% of an entire population of 300,000,000 you have a LOT of misfits.

Suddenly we no longer have an economic issue, but a social-psychological and cultural one.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:41:05 GMT

[quote]No, that's Capitalism. [/quote]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez_faire]Laissez faire, baby![/url]

International Borders be Damned!!!!!!

:runs:

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:34:38 GMT

No, that's Capitalism. Companies that knowingly employ illegal work forces inorder to achieve success should fail IMO. Or move too Mexico, or where ever in the world they are hiring that force from. They are not concerned with the Illegal Immigrants any more than they are concerned with national security. And would, at any given moment sell this country for profit. I'm thinking the "almost" sale of American east coast ports to the UAE.:crazy:

To those who bemoan companies leaving US shores for cheaper labour, let me remind you that there are always younger fresher companies waiting in the wings for the giants too move their shadows. Hershey Chocalate bailed too Mexico last year. Several companies moved into the vacated buildings, remodeled and hired. More jobs with brighter more promising futures. Nestle wanted to buy Hershey out, but the people of the city of Hershey tried to force Hershey into a no sale. So Hershey said **** you! And packed up and left. People cried for months, only to find out they didn't need Hershey Chocolate there in the first place. Life went on.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:19:55 GMT

[quote]It isn't the Illegals fault, it's the companies that hire them.[/quote]

Hmm, isn't it the consumer's fault for demanding such low prices? :cool:

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

cleopatra143 — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:52:08 GMT

My whole family works in construction. My mom was a scheduler/accountant for a very large contractor in Texas. Almost all of the Mexicans that worked there were illegal. The companies that hire them, know they are. The illegals buy stacks of social security cards for $50. When they can no longer use a particular number they come in and hand them another number one to change it on the payroll. So it's not like anyone is pulling the wool over their eyes, they allow it to happen because it fits their bottom line. Background checks cost money, so what is the point of getting a background check when you already know they are illegal and don't really care? The whole industry is doing it. It isn't the Illegals fault, it's the companies that hire them. If they knew they couldn't get a job here, they wouldn't come!! The people being victimized here are the American people and to some greater extent, the Illegal. It obviously isn't hurting the companies, nor the politician who has stock in these companies.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:05:06 GMT

Sure. But background checks take time and manpower which equals money. As laws like these are enforced, the illegals will come up with more clever ways of cheating. You won't have a situation where several guys are using the same SS# because it will be less likely they will be hired. They'll just think of another way. I'm not saying methods like this shouldn't be used, only that M's point that "Each individual is far more nimble than bureaucracy," is a valid one. That's what black markets are all about.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Nuclearcow — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:53:19 GMT

Then perhaps some better identity checks need to be done. One of the meat packing plants in Northern Colorado that was raided several months ago had several illegals using the same social security number. Surely that wouldn't have been too hard for the company to figure out. I imagine it was one of those *wink wink* thanks for your social security card, deals.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:06:42 GMT

[quote]If the government fines the heck out of companies that use illegals, it will remove their motivation for hiring them. Saving money. If there are no companies hiring them, they will stop coming.[/quote]

Yes this would have some effect, though there are ways around it as well. It would probably increase identity theft as a result. If a company doesn't know they are hiring illegals, you can't just fine them as well.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Nuclearcow — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:56:41 GMT

If the government fines the heck out of companies that use illegals, it will remove their motivation for hiring them. Saving money. If there are no companies hiring them, they will stop coming.

That may be over-simplifying it a bit, but supply and demand is a piece of this process too.

Building a wall. Why is that so hard for a country like the U.S.? Isn't it national security?

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:46:24 GMT

You know M, I don't disagree with anything you said. I know I get paid way too much to do what I do :w00t:. Mind you the cost of living is higher in developed countries as well so a dollar in the U.S. is less valuable than the same dollar in say, Mexico. I don't like the idea of a fence but at this time, it's probably necessary. While I don't have a problem with people coming here to work, I think that there should be a process of getting them here and I really don't like the idea of people living here who are "not on the books". While a fence won't solve the problem, I think that it will help the problem we face at this time.

The real issue we have with illegals is that they use our system at the expense of the people living here. The way I see to solve the problem is to privatize education, welfare and all the other reasons people come here to get a free ride. Then the only ones left will be the productive ones because there won't be a system to work. Well that's my Libertarian Utopian ideal of course :P. If we legalize drugs in a way that dramatically reduces the price yet is strongly regulated (to prevent minors, etc. from getting them), the illegal drug trade will be demolished and the reasons criminals come here from south of the border will be gone and we'll live in a world of peace and harmon... okay well, I think it's clear none of that will ever happen so we have to go to plan B, putting up a fence :/

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 11:27:35 GMT

Uh yea, that helped. NOT.

So I guess we did learn?

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 11:18:51 GMT

[quote]Stop rewarding succesful "Illegal" invasion, with promises of amnesty, and this forgive and forget mentality. [/quote]

That's what Reagan did, except he didn't just promise, but carried through with it. Ha HA! You'd think we'd have learned in the 20 some years that have passed since then, but we just want to repeat history over and over again!

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 11:04:19 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (6/3/2008)[/b][hr]Illegal immigration is not the problem. The problem are the laws that limit immigration.

Not so much wealth as diversity attracted by wealth. America used too, and still does (with all her problems) attract the brightest minds from all over the world. Enriching the pot. But these minds were not connected for the most part, to bodies jumping fences. They went through the seemingly light rigors(compared to some countries) of becoming American citizens, duel citizenship, visa's, etc. They chose the legal route. Even those attending Universities and higher education, chose the legal route, knowing that one day they would return to their native land much enriched by the American Education System.

I have no problem what so ever with that. It generally makes the whole world a better place. I'm speaking of those ousted by their own for being antisocial, malcontents, that find the "open" System that Scipio describes, an easy target. If it were only one or two, yea, so what. But hundreds of thousands begins to strain what was created for the better of all. A couple million bad apples amongst several million good apples really begins to spoil the basket. Causing bright "Legal" minds to look elsewhere. We are seeing that I believe. And America becomes the loser in the long run.

I agree with you and Scipio that a stronger higher fence stops the bleeding only temporarily. But it is a knee jerk reaction to some very real social problems here. Including drugs. It is a "must do" for now. The SYSTEM must be stronger and higher, not the fence in the long haul. Stop rewarding succesful "Illegal" invasion, with promises of amnesty, and this forgive and forget mentality. Provide amnesty to the twenty million or so "Illegal" by first making them follow the rules of American law. They must be known. They must register and begin the Assimilation process or as Scipio states, be gone. An by this restore respect not only for US law, but to the folks who take the time to do it honestly.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

-M- — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:37:10 GMT

Illegal immigration is not the problem. The problem are the laws that limit immigration.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Scipio Africanus — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:13:48 GMT

[quote] . . . These are Americans. These are hard working people respectful of the country they chose to live in and the laws. I'm sure there are several million currently in the US just like them. Including most of the population of the USA. All part of a huge melting pot. This isn't a smelting pot. How fare is it to good folks like these that "Illegals" do better than they? That is my major beef with those who refuse assimilation, yet use the US.[/quote]

I agree with that wholeheartedly. Assimilate or leave I say. Don't come here to stay something else besides American; come here to become American or come here for a visit. Don't come here to stay interminably to use the system and be used by the system. Become part of it, or leave.

Now, the questions this raises are: (a) WHY do people come here to "use the system" and "be used by the system?" We need to phrase it that way to really accurately talk about what happens. The _using_ is a two-directional process. Illegals use the system, and "the system" uses the illegals.

(b) How can this reciprocal exploitation of northern employers in the "NAFTA area system" and illegal Latin American workers be deconstructed so that they stop coming here to use the system, and instead come here to become part of the place, else don't come at all? Decrease the demand for the reciprocal exploitative arrangement at both ends of the pipeline.

In the north, if there was little or no system for them to use, or little or no system that used them, they wouldn't come. In short, penalize the employers, the customers, and the other users of the illegals and you would decrease "demand" for the labor on the north side of the pipeline. In the south, get Mexico stabilized politically, economically, and boost its continued ascendance into the "middle income countries" status." Right now Mexico is undergoing a massive boom, but that wealth is not distributed. There are lots of rural people, semi-literate people or just hard-luck people who feel they could do better by undergoing the struggle of illegally migrating to another country to work hard long hours for wages that are relatively low compared to those for which the average American will work. Help Mexico (Honduras, etc.) to be a place(s) where these folks feel they are better off to stay and work and you decrease the "demand" for the work on the south end of the pipeline.

Putting up "walls," or simply policing borders is time-consuming, expensive, inefficient, and ineffective. The same critique can be made on the "Drug on War." If you really want to change the problem address the demand not the supply. Most of the solutions proposed by those who want to "solve" the illegal immigration problem are akin to suggesting a bandaid as a solution to a malignant bone cancer. The real solution is to take on the hard, and frightening task of fighting the social and economic illness that pervades the entire NAFTA area, akin to undergoing aggressive chemo-therapy and bone marrow transplant. Not a pretty prospect, and it might not even "save the patient." But sometimes when you are sick enough, an unpleasant long-shot is about the best you can hope for. Walls/band-aids/policing ain't gonna make a big difference: it is spooning the ocean. Even if every cop in the U.S. was assigned to strictly illegal immigration enforcement, it still would only represent a partial solution, and what would happen to all the other myriad dimensions of crime and punishment in our society if our police totally focused on the illegal immigrants.

I totally disrespect people who come here illegally, stay here illegally, work here illegally, make use of the social systems here illegally, refuse to learn the national language (English) and refuse to assimilate, and even worse: harbor ill-will to the U.S. I also disrespect the employers who give these people work. F*$% them! Both of them!

But disliking them and their BS is a different thing that actually "fixing" it. Disliking them, and proposing steps that amount to increased punitiveness against "them" simply is not going to solve it, although it does play to the sympathy of those of us who dislike them.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:11:08 GMT

Alas, I have no answer for that. Not much you can realistically do with 20 million +, except accept them. I am afraid that there law breaking must in the end be rewarded.

And you are right. My personal experience is only a small part of the whole picture. I only ever offer it as that. I never offer it as gospel. I think we all add pieces to the puzzle. I should however post a small disclaimer in my sig. Just thought it was a foregone conclusion.:P

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:01:42 GMT

I fear I am not getting my point across properly. I never meant to imply you were racist BO, only that one's own experience cannot be the only source of information because there's bound to be several other people with different experiences which form their opinions. That doesn't mean it can't be part of the picture. I also don't want to give the impression that I am for illegal immigration either. We are a nation of laws and we need to let the masses flow in in an orderly manner. The question is what we do with the people who are already here.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

Black Owl — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:45:39 GMT

You'll pardon me please, for not depending too heavily on the "news" or internet for my reasons on any subject. I don't believe I ever said Hispanics are the only source of assimilation problems. You attempt in a veiled way there to file me under racist.

(Prepare for another personal experience please)

GOD, the Universe, or whatever creates coincidence smiled on me yesterday. Part of my job at the lake is too sit on my duff and wait for calls for emergency repairs. I was sitting by the lake late yesterday afternoon finishing reports at a picnic table. Beautiful day. Boats and people every where. A Woman and two men, Hispanic, decided to set up fishing in front of me. We exchanged greetings. Not long later, the younger male hauled in a large Smallmouth Bass. He wanted to release it, and I helped him revive the fish. We settled into long conversation. It was they who brought up the subject of assimilation. I said nothing about my being part of 1bc. They came to the cove I was in, to get away from there own. They were Puerto Rican Americans. She owned a large grocery store in Reading, Pa, near where I live. Her husband drives truck back and forth across America. The son is starting college next fall. These are Americans. These are hard working people respectful of the country they chose to live in and the laws. I'm sure there are several million currently in the US just like them. Including most of the population of the USA. All part of a huge melting pot. This isn't a smelting pot. How fare is it to good folks like these that "Illegals" do better than they? That is my major beef with those who refuse assimilation, yet use the US.

Jerm, I respect you a bunch, but if a man can't speak from personal experience, then he's just repeating others experiences. I will continue to do so, while asking you to allow that it is just as valid, and probably more so than any statistic. Since I will NOT stoop to falsely relating personal experience just to make a point. I think that might be what you meant. And I do agree in that case that it is unhelpful. But give me a little more credit for honesty.

RE: You will be assimilated!!!!!

jerm — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:25:44 GMT

Black Owl, while anecdotes are useful, an accurate assessment of the situation is not done by using one's own personal experience. You've done this with a few topics. To lump all Hispanics into one group is not particularly helpful to the discussion. My experience has been different. Sure, I've seen the type you are talking about too and I don't pretend to say it's not a problem but it's not all I see either. Assimilation won't happen overnight for sure but that doesn't mean it won't happen. Generally 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants from the "south" are quite assimilated. It's the 1st gen that's hardest to get done. There are definitely things we should do to help this which we are not doing today. For example, all public documents/applications/etc. should be in English... period. Get rid of the "system" altogether so those who come here can't take advantage of it. At least, don't make it easy to take advantage of the system. Just because there are problems on our end does not mean we close off the borders.

NC, you seem to read into my posts more than is there ;). Show me where I said your view is racist. I have met people who have had such views. I grew up in So. Cal. though so perhaps it's a bit more heated there. There are definitely large Hispanic ghettos in L.A. that don't assimilate. This does not mean they all can't. This is the view which I think is racist, though perhaps I overused that word. I do not mean that anyone who has conservative immigration views is racist. Heck, my immigration views are pretty conservative, but perhaps slightly less so than most conservatives.