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RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:47:54 GMT

[quote]If I have something you need more than me, and you something I need more than you, we trade. Both are better off. The gain of one is not an equivalent loss for the other, i.e. it is not a zero-sum game.[/quote]

Better off in what regard? In feeling? For when an item is traded, 1 party loses the traded item, while the other party gains. So comparative advantage is in perception. The actual phisical stuff is lost or gained, therefore it is zero sum. It matters not that you value ur oil less than the guy that is willing to pay for it with dollars. How many a people have been sorry for the decisions of their predecisors. The russian tsar sold Alaska, for he thought what use he has for some extra tundra when he has so much of it already. But then the following generations condemned that action. On the one hand comparative advantage would state: "The tsar gained dollars for what was marginally less valuable to him, therefore both sides gained" But that overlooks the fact that controll of that material posession was still lost. Furthermore consiquent developments have shown that Alaska was sold dirt cheap too.

In any case, value of traded items stem from our current needs. Our current needs are temporal, therefore value we attach to our posessions are temporal and are subject to change. State of our current needs does not negate the fact that a bottle of watter is a bottle of water and will be gone if we traded it for something else. Comparative advantage argument has merit, but one that does not apply here.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 14:21:18 GMT

It seems to me that the oil crisis, and energy policy in general, is quickly taking over the national debate and shaping the election discussion. No doubt.

I heard O'Reilly mention that the government needs to mandate that 75% of new vehicles are flex-fuel engine equipped, that this will force the hand of the gasoline companies to market alternatives to gasoline because they will be assured that there will be a greater demand for the alternatives, and that he is generally opposed to government interference in such matters but that the issue of national security, regarding the fact that we are so dependent on foreign oil from unfriendly parts of the world, trumps all. Interesting...

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Konrad von Richtmark — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:52:08 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (7/21/2008)[/b][hr]Ye what of it & how does that apply to this?[/quote]

If I have something you need more than me, and you something I need more than you, we trade. Both are better off. The gain of one is not an equivalent loss for the other, i.e. it is not a zero-sum game.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:24:45 GMT

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/21/pickens.interview/index.html]T Boone Pickens interview with Dobbs[/url]

I'm sure y'all heard of this guy recently in the news.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:58:06 GMT

Ye what of it & how does that apply to this?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Konrad von Richtmark — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:53:59 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (7/14/2008)[/b][hr]In the world of zero sum games its better to be a bigger fraud than a lesser fraud. And trust me this world is a zero sum game. If it werent there would be free lunchs lying around all over the place.[/quote]

I think someone needs to look up the term "Comparative advantage".

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:12:46 GMT

So you were asking if I thought he was lying about his opinion? How would I know...? :blink: I said I take what he says with a grain of salt, meaning I don't take it too seriously. That doesn't mean he's lying or whatever. Maybe he is, I don't know, but he is rather sensationalistic and that makes good radio.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:40:58 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]How can you be lying about an opinion?[/quote]

Please see my most recent exchange in the Euro2009 thread! :w00t: You can lie about an opinion when you don't really believe it yourself! :P

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:51:55 GMT

How can you be lying about an opinion. His statement about McCain being a bigger fraud than Obama was simply an opinion, though I'm sure he believes they are factual. I take his [i]opinions[/i] with a grain of salt...

...did that need explaining...? :hehe:

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:22:45 GMT

Are you suggesting he is lying? Or is he just full of horsebleep? Maybe he is a closet liberal. He does live in San Francisco area after all! :w00t:

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:44:17 GMT

Locus, I tend to take most of what Savage says with a grain of salt. If you want to believe what he says about McCain, go ahead, I won't. ;)

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:56:41 GMT

I have to say that most of those can be atributed to brainfreezes. You know when the public is cheering you along, it kinda has a way of getting to you.

But that Auschwitz comment, that is malicious manipulation. This is same as Kiyosaki's rich dad fantasy - a fiction invented out of thin air in order to mislead the masses & afford the speaker with more credability. What a blatant lie. Using world war 2 and an atrocity that is auschwitz for personal gain. I'ma thoroughly disgusted.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Scipio Africanus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:02:39 GMT

I wonder how Obama would get along hangin' round the foxhole with these guys?

[youtube]s7Lv711icd4&feature=related[/youtube]

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:41:32 GMT

[quote]Well even the biggest fraud needs allies, so the victims cannot possibly be everyone else.[/quote]

Clearly. But I would say more people woukd be harmed than helped, if were a truly ginormous fraud!

[quote]tell me exactly what about McCain is such fraudelent?[/quote]

I don't know, I didn't say it, Savage did. Prolly because McCain is not a true conservative like Savage Nation is. ;)

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:37:13 GMT

Well even the biggest fraud needs allies, so the victims cannot possibly be everyone else. But before we completly veer off into abstractions, tell me exactly what about McCain is such fraudelent?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:22:20 GMT

[quote]In the world of zero sum games its better to be a bigger fraud than a lesser fraud.[/quote]

better for who, the fraud...or everyone else?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:19:43 GMT

In the world of zero sum games its better to be a bigger fraud than a lesser fraud. And trust me this world is a zero sum game. If it werent there would be free lunchs lying around all over the place.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:08:52 GMT

bigger frauds do more damage?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:03:13 GMT

Well you you gonna aim for something aim for something big is my moto. if you gonna fake it, why fake just 1 karat? You are still guilty.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:57:16 GMT

[quote]Do we blame the son for the father's transgressions?[/quote]

Oh, I am not blaming him. I am just pointing it out. ;)

I heard on Michael Savage tonight (can't much stand the guy, though he's not as bad as Rush), but he said how we all thought the Republicans in power were going govern conservatively in the realm of economic policy, but instead of the Tax-and-Spend Democrats, we got the Borrow-and-Spend Republicans....that it was a major letdown, they sold us out, and he asked rhetorically, "Which do you think will be more harmful for your children's future." He also went on to say that John McCain was a 14-karat fraud (that Obama was only a 1-karat fraud). Har har!!!!

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:26:00 GMT

That video got sensored :w00t:

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Scipio Africanus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:20:41 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (7/14/2008)[/b][hr]So Obama says give 'em another stimulus package. Well if that package is going to be another round of checks then that is inflationary. The dollar is weak as it is & he want to furhter that decline? I dont get how is that gonna help the gas prices?

And another thing... If the effect of drilling offshore on gas prices is speculative, so is development of alternative energy. Both will not have immidiet effect, both will take years to take effect but one is more speculative than the other. And that one is relying on alternative energy. What gives? Does Obama even have an inkling about what he says? I'ma starting to believe that Bush has more brains than Obama. And kudos to him for being bold today & lifting that ban.[/quote]

The really frightening thing is how many people are applauding this guy, basically just because he is black, young, and has a certain kind of "Slick Willie" charisma.

[youtube]ap2Cg_FDRy4[/youtube]

I'm seriously frightened for America that posers like this can even get to this stage of things, and have so many highly-educated idiots standing firmly behind him simply because his "identity" serves their ACLU/NAACP/socialist agendas . . .

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:49:40 GMT

Do we blame the son for the father's transgressions?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:07:57 GMT

[quote]And kudos to him for being bold today & lifting that ban.[/quote]

His daddy put the ban in place! :)

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:32:12 GMT

So Obama says give 'em another stimulus package. Well if that package is going to be another round of checks then that is inflationary. The dollar is weak as it is & he want to furhter that decline? I dont get how is that gonna help the gas prices?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:45:23 GMT

No, it doesn't get any more [i]basic[/i] than that. I disagree that you have to have pure capitalism in order to have supply and demand. What is "pure capitalism" anyway, other than theoretical? Supply and demand are givens in economics. The way governments can control the market in free societies is to either mess with supply or mess with demand. They still exist, even in heavilly regulated countries. Even socialist ones. Don't confuse "basic" with "pure."

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:31:27 GMT

You said "supply and demand" jerm, with reference to the futures market. Capitalism doesn't get any more pure than that! :w00t:

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:29:12 GMT

Ummm... where did I say it was "pure capitalism"?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Nuclearcow — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 03:29:35 GMT

All animals are created equal. Some animals are more equal than others. :P (thats from Animal Farm, for some of you folks)

Jerm, if you think its pure capitalism, try to buy a barrel of oil yourself without going through a commodity market. Not only is it illegal (I think?) but shyeah... good luck.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Locus Coeruleus — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:48:17 GMT

[quote]It is obvious from the teachings and sincere humanism of our enlightened socialist leaders that we are all equal[/quote]

Well, let's call a spade a spade here, Scip, that's not socialism, that's communism!!!! :P

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:12:53 GMT

My bank is offering gas incentives... oil prices will be a lot lower by christmas.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:08:23 GMT

Nuke, if there was one single buyer or one single seller of futures, your statement would hold true, just as it does anywhere else in economics. Sure you can plan to buy high and sell higher but if there's a smart guy who buys just a bit lower so he can actually get the sale, the first buyer's up a creek. There are loads of buyers and sellers in the futures market so the competition is there to keep things like driving up the price of toilet paper so we can make a killing only a goal and not a reality. You still have to have a competitive price in the end. If prices of oil were to suddenly fall tomorrow, all the people who bought high would lose. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that but I think it's an accurate simplification. Why does supply and demand not apply to the futures market?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

-M- — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:23:38 GMT

As I said before elsewhere... It is about eating or being eaten.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Scipio Africanus — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:19:18 GMT

[quote] . . . This was Ollila, the guy who had turned Nokia from a small-time consumer electronics company into the world's foremost producer of mobile phones. They thought he could do the same to Ericsson, or if nothing else, his mere reputation would have caused the value of their stock to spike . . . [/quote]

*feigns 'tenured-radical' social theorist type attitude* Why Konrad! How dare you suggest that any mere person might have more utility than any other! It is obvious from the teachings and sincere humanism of our enlightened socialist leaders that we are all equal, and the only appropriate way to rule any organization is through committee and bureacracy.

If companies cannot provide me with my beloved products and services through collectivist, profit sharing business-designs, why, why . . . I'll just have to grumble when they go out of business cause they are outcompeted*unfeigns*

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Konrad von Richtmark — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:14:54 GMT

[quote][b]cleopatra143 (7/10/2008)[/b][hr]You are right in some respects but if I was a business owner (and I have been), the first thing I would do is cut the fat so to speak. Perhaps I am too idealistic. However I know that many airlines have already started charging customers for baggage, taking out in flight entertainment, carry less items, scheduling less flights, laying off personnel, etc. So they are trying it would seem, but probably not in the way they should. If you are facing an economic downturn, the last thing you want to do is start handing out bonus' and fat checks to the people at the top. I guess that's just me though. Too bad.[/quote]

It would depend. [b]If[/b] the marginal negative utility suffered (poorer management) by losing the CEOs is higher than the amount of money saved, it would not make sense to cut down those bonuses. A saving is only worth it if you can pull it off without losing even more revenue in the process.

A few years ago, the Swedish telecommunications giant Ericsson was in deep trouble. They offered Jorma Ollila, who at the time was the CEO of its Finnish rival Nokia, 1 billion crowns (about $100,000,000) just as an entry fee if he were to defect to Ericsson!

Did they offer him such a humongous fee because they were oppressive, bloodsucking, bourgeoise, Forbes-reading Capitalist pigdogs? No. They did it because they, for real, thought that it would benefit the company. This was Ollila, the guy who had turned Nokia from a small-time consumer electronics company into the world's foremost producer of mobile phones. They thought he could do the same to Ericsson, or if nothing else, his mere reputation would have caused the value of their stock to spike.

I'm all for regulation. I would even support international taxation. Tosk and jerm would probably consider me a commie pinko if we'd get to discuss serious economics. Still, what leftists easily forget is that, in an economy, nothing exists in a vacuum, everything is related to and a consequence of everything else. That which looks outrageously wasteful might be a consequence of something else that is hugely efficient.

If companies would really be overpaying their CEOs, they wouldn't stay in business for too long. Inefficient companies tend to get disqualified by natural selection.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Scipio Africanus — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:57:06 GMT

That raises this question for me Nukau: where are these "speculators?" Who are these speculators? Are they all U.S. citizens? Do they all live in and work under the regulations of the U.S.? Or are some of them maybe Russians? Or maybe Venezeulans, or Chinese?

Like I said, I'm no economist . . . but I'm reminded of one market-forces story about which I know a little bit because of working on the history of southern Africa a tad bit.

Diamonds. They were worthless up till some time in the 19th century. Too hard to be worked with previously, and no obvious use. Began to change in more recent history, but then esp. because of a major marketing scheme (initially in Europe IMS but then also in N. Am) to pose Diamonds as the "Zeus" (or Hera?) of the gem pantheon. Timeless, pure, glasslike . . . In a matter of a couple generations the notion of the Diamond ring as an integral part of the "traditional" Euro White Wedding was born, and simultaneously DeBeers was buying up all the best known diamond-producing areas. The Russians got into the game in the 20th century.

As you may know, these rocks are not cheap, but that is not because they are not plentiful. My understanding is that there are warehouses FULL of these rocks in Holland and Russian (and Australia too?). Their high value is largely artificial through two mechanisms (a) ongoing marketing campaign that started ~150 years ago and has people convinced that Diamonds are the most traditional, most meaningful, and most substantial betrothal gift; (b) hoarding by the producer.

I know oil is a different kind of thing. If I hop in my car, I can be at the parking lot for my office in about 12 or 14 minutes, whereas it would take me about 19 minutes on my bike.

Ironically though, for me in my special highly contrived circumstance (meaning I sought to live where I live for the specific purpose of biking to work) the bike vs the car work out to be about equal. When you add in the ~10 min to walk from the parking lot to the office it works out to be about equal to biking: door to door about 25 minutes either way, but then I don't sweat in the car. The faster I go in the car, the more I risk hurting someone, or getting a ticket. The faster I go on the bike the longer I live (assuming I'm riding safely, and not going fast weaving in and out of traffic! :w00t:)

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Nuclearcow — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:26:25 GMT

Pardon my parody response, but sometimes it makes the best points.

Perhaps they should mandate toilet paper to go through commodity markets (and speculators) before buying it. Why not? *feigned right winged capitalism rage*. I mean, everyone needs toilet paper and we have the right to sell it for the highest price, no? Maybe we should jack up the price on toilet paper to $10 per roll because people will still pay for it because people NEED toilet paper. If we force toilet paper through our commodity exchange before it ever hits stores, we'll be rich!

Come to think of it. People will buy diapers and baby formula no matter what the price is, so perhaps we should mandate that it goes through the exchange commodity market 1st as well. Hey... maybe medical supplies and prescriptions too! If you don't think so, why not? ;)

Ever hear of the wealthy Hunt family buying up most of the silver in the 1970s, so they could do the above themselves? Silver is needed in many electronics, parts, etc. Hey, people will need it regardless, so buy it up and charge much more. They'll pay it. Price went from $1.95 an ounce to $54 an ounce before the Feds jumped in and said you can't do that, and made various regulations to silver and the commodity market which eventually bankrupted the Hunts.

$1.95 to $54 an ounce. And oil speculators don't affect the market much? ;) Thats just what they will say so their cash-cow doesn't go away.

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

Scipio Africanus — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:58:33 GMT

I'm no economist, but isn't the real problem here that the oil miners or whoever is the step before the speculators sell it to speculators instead of directly to refiners? How DARE they sell the 'fruits' of their labor for the highest price they can get!! *feigns left-wing academic rage*

Regulating speculators would just encourage would-be speculators to find loopholes wouldn't it?

*strikes semi-pompous know-it-all 'tenured activist' pose*Sounds like government control of the Oil Industry from oil well to gas pump is the solution to me :P

We don't need no stinkin' free market! Let the Gubmunt control it! They do such a good job with our roads, Social Security, Federal Prisons, National propaganda, etc., I'm sure they can just figure it out can't they?

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

jerm — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:10:11 GMT

Damnit, my ego's all over the floor...

RE: Help Fight America's Oil Crisis

cleopatra143 — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:08:28 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (7/12/2008)[/b][hr][quote]Mr. Jermed warrior. I was just making a general reply on the topic/thread and was not in fact replying to your post, sir.[/quote]

Yeah, yeah, kick me when I've already been kicked by Locus :P. You know when you write something and then you come back and read it and think, "what was I thinking?" That's what happened. Can we drop it? :w00t:[/quote]NO, I want to kick you a few more times. :P