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RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Scipio Africanus — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:02:24 GMT

[quote]But your response to my statement about decriminalization leads me to believe that you are suggesting that there is a correlation between these conditions and the state of decriminalization of marijuana. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please tell me, is that what you are suggesting?[/quote]

Honestly I was being suggestive and had not thought it through completely, but in stopping to do so now, yes, that is roughly what I'm saying.

The government is part of society. Schools, laws about public behavior, etc., are all part of society. When laws are put into place proscribing things, it has a rippling effect throughout the rest of society. If there is enough demand, there will be those who willingly, and knowingly break the law, thus the "costly war on drugs" to which Muk referred. A war which I agree, can never be "won" strictly through jurisprudential, and legal-enforcement or interdictionary forms of social intervention. My key point is: one should not assume therefore that legalization, and normalization are the only options. Instead, focus on the changing the social processes that make it normal to use self-harming substances, and be patient enough for these slow but steady forces to work. Eventually the law will be largely irrelevant: rates of use will drop, and when they drop below some economic threshold many of the secondary problems of crime, violence, excess incarceration, etc. will also decline. In the long run, it should be possible to engineer a society in which self-harming behaviors (use of pot, use of coke, excessive use of caffeine, or alcohol, or WoW) are primarily regulated by social forces of normalization instead of by legal enforcement.

But the same is true for the reverse: UN-proscribing things will also have a rippling effect throughout the rest of society.

If the government, the schools, and the larger "authority" within a society are not proscribing pot as illegal/bad/uncivil, then that puts parents, teachers, etc. into a very different position vis a vis socializing their young charges than if it were illegal.

I suspect I do not need to explore the multi-step social processes by which a society such as Canada, which I characterized as "indulgent" because it is pervaded with UN-proscriptions of various behaviors that ARE proscribed south of the boarder might suffer higher rates of "anomic youth," by virtue of its pervasion with UN-proscribed behaviors? If you remain skeptical, let me know and I'll outline it a bit more.

[quote]I'm all for having a good debate, but I don't much appreciate it when folks twist the facts to suit their arguments. Humanity would probably be much better off if God took all these chemical psychoactive intoxicants and wiped them clean off the slate, but actually, I don't know about that, because you'd have thousands, if not millions of drug addicts running around in withdrawl. As you say abnormalization is a much better way to go, but as jerm says, government imposition is not the best way for that to happen.[/quote]

No arguments here. I do not see jurisprudential proscription of such substances, or legal enforcement as viable and sustainable long-term solutions. Abnormalizing would represent a long-term, slow and steady process, not one which would abruptly deprive any particular individual suffering a dependency on any given substance.

Racism is a similar social ill which can (at this stage in World history) be dealt with through similar mediums.

We do not need Draconian Laws proscribing racist attitudes and behaviors. What we need are for "US" for people to speak up and confront other people whenever they exhibit such attitudes and behaviors, no matter what their skin color, religion, creed, etc.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

cleopatra143 — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 11:08:17 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (7/31/2008)[/b][hr]I can count on one hand the amount of times I've tried pot and if it were legalized, I wouldn't rush out to go and smoke some wacky tobacky. I'm all for abnormalizing it but shouldn't we get to choosewhat we do with our bodies? Is it the government's job to tell us what we should and shouldn't do? The government's job is to protect us from others but not from ourselves. If we get behind the wheel while stoned, yeah that should be illegal. Smoking it and staying in your backyard or whatever is your problem, not mine.[/quote]Hey, that's what I said! lol /hi5

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

jerm — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 01:31:32 GMT

Or perhaps it makes me liberal. :P Then again, one place where liberal and conservative often meet is in libertarianism. I think we may cross paths many times here Locus ;).

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:07:43 GMT

Word up, jerm! I agree with you 100%. Does that make me a conservative? :P

[quote]Ask Ness if Canada has a worse or better problem than the U.S. with juvenile delinquency, runaways, child prostitution, that kinda thing. Canada is an incredibly middle-class, indulgent, liberal and educated society that is also suffering (last I checked) disproportionately from a range of problems that can be summarized as "anomic youth."[/quote]

No doubt Canada has these problems. I am under no impression that Canada is pristine or even better off, as a society, than USA. All I am saying is that in Canada, there is decriminalization but not "legalization." It may be a coincidence that there exist a state of decriminalization and juvenile delinquency, runaways, child prostitution, and that kind of thing. Would these problems exist to such an extent if marijuana was not decriminalized, but either wholly legal as in Amsterdam, or fully illegal in most parts of the USA (as I understand it there are pockets of America, where, under local jurisdiction, if you get caught with a small quantity of the MJ, that you get nothing more than a slap on the wrist fine, "carry on, as you were.") Canada may even, in fact be suffering disproportionately from a range of problems that can be summarized as "anomic youth." But your response to my statement about decriminalization leads me to believe that you are suggesting that there is a correlation between these conditions and the state of decriminalization of marijuana. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please tell me, is that what you are suggesting?

I'm all for having a good debate, but I don't much appreciate it when folks twist the facts to suit their arguments. Humanity would probably be much better off if God took all these chemical psychoactive intoxicants and wiped them clean off the slate, but actually, I don't know about that, because you'd have thousands, if not millions of drug addicts running around in withdrawl. As you say abnormalization is a much better way to go, but as jerm says, government imposition is not the best way for that to happen. ;)

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

jerm — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:13:58 GMT

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've tried pot and if it were legalized, I wouldn't rush out to go and smoke some wacky tobacky. I'm all for abnormalizing it but shouldn't we get to choose what we do with our bodies? Is it the government's job to tell us what we should and shouldn't do? The government's job is to protect us from others but not from ourselves. If we get behind the wheel while stoned, yeah that should be illegal. Smoking it and staying in your backyard or whatever is your problem, not mine.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Scipio Africanus — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:28:36 GMT

Ask Ness if Canada has a worse or better problem than the U.S. with juvenile delinquency, runaways, child prostitution, that kinda thing. Canada is an incredibly middle-class, indulgent, liberal and educated society that is also suffering (last I checked) disproportionately from a range of problems that can be summarized as "anomic youth."

Granted, I'm not trying to argue that reimposing the Puritan order exemplified in the Scarlett Letter is necessarily better. Just trying to point out that there are costs and benefits to any social policy. You've got to decide what it is you prefer.

I say: go ahead and legalize whatever you want, but make sure you are taking steps to abnormalize all of it. If you don't really know what that means to "abnormalize it," then why do you expect that it is safe to fiddle around with legalizing it?

Leave the other harmful food & drugs legal for now, but take similarly serious steps to abnormalize them. If your efforts to abnormalize (read "re-civilize") the worldviews of your people with respect to these risky and self-destructive substances are successful, then you won't ever actually have to change the laws anyway.

In short: ideally people should not smoke pot, drink alcohol, or smoke cigarettes, or use any other harmful drug or food (cocaine, caffeine, betel nut, heroine, World of Warcrack, etc.). Why? Because all of these substances cause damage to the body and/or mind.

When you consume marijuana, you are damaging myriad tissues throughout the body, the brain, the reproductive organs, the lungs, the liver, etc. This is by degrees (and with applicability to varying organ systems) true of all the harmful self-destructive and habit forming substances I list above, with perhas cocaine or heroine being on the far right end of the continuum of harmfulness and caffeine and World of Warcrack being on the other left hand side. World of Warcrack in moderation could actually be beneficial I guess . . . Anyway, back to pot: when you smoke a marijuana cigarette once per day for a month, the analagous harm you are doing would be roughly as follows: at the end of the month, take a nice big biopsy needle and inject a very low a diluted dose of some toxin that will kill cells at a predictable but fairly low rate. Inject some into your testicles, into your brain, into your liver, into each lung, etc.

You would not consider it to be 'normal' for a person to inject themselves in these organs with a tissue-damaging toxin on a regular basis would you? So why would you consider it normal to administer a habit-forming, and psychotropic drug with comparable tissue damaging effects on a comparable regular basis?

For chronic low-doses of alcohol, the debate still continues. I think the consensus today is that the harmful effects of alcohol on neural tissues only occur with very high doses, else with relatively high chronic doses, and there is some pretty good evidence that chronic low dosing with alcohol (i.e., 1 to 2 drinks every day) actually helps with blood cholesterol. Anyway, I can agree that alcohol might also belong in the category of harmful substance that should be abnormalized. But there is not much to debate about marijuana: it is harmful.

Laws are not much good at moving a society toward ideals of people avoiding self-destructive behaviors however.

Abnormalizing the selling, ownership, use, or dependency on such self-harming things starting at home and extending throughout all aspects of society is the only real solution, and even then there will be 'offenders.'

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

-M- — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:07:10 GMT

[quote]Scipio, what are you on about? :hehe:[/quote]

He is on about that there are evels. Some evels are legitimate for trivial reasons, just as others are illigitamate for other trivial reasons. Being a legitimate evel does not make it any less harmful just as being an illigitamate evel does not make it any more. The ying & yang, the harmonious society is what he says.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Roadkill — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:47:49 GMT

[quote][b]cleopatra143 (7/30/2008)[/b][hr]I have tried pot and it sucks. =P[/quote]

-You're doin' it wrong. :D

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

jerm — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:24:53 GMT

[quote]Kind of like building a wall along the Mexican border alone is a bad idea?[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote]I don't know jerm, according to Ness, when he was here, in Canada there is not legalization, in the strictest sense, but there is decriminalization. How well is it working for them? Is it a bad idea in Canada? If not, can a good idea in Canada be a bad idea in the USA?[/quote]

I think that Canada's population density makes it quite a different creature than the U.S. There's far less inner city type places and while there is definitely a criminal element (which sells the drugs in the first place) it's most likely more of a grass roots type of opperation. Here in the U.S. you have mega-gangs which smuggle and distribute drugs to the populations. These gangs compete with one another and hence you have violence. That said, I did notice that it only decriminalizes the possession of like 3 oz. which is pretty small and I suppose if you hold more, the cops still have some leverage against you.

Scipio, what are you on about? :hehe:

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Scipio Africanus — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:59:37 GMT

Wha ? / ? ? . . . This sttuff is ILLEGAL!? *runs back toward the faculty club unstuffing pockets*

I say: legalize EVERYTHING. Let the 10 year olds use whatever they want. That'll 'teach 'em.' If it feels good, it can't be wrong . . . right?

But seriously . . . This is one of those issues which shows quite poignantly that: Democracy cannot function at peak efficiency without a vibrant, and evolving educational system coupled with an empowered and enlightened Dept of Family and Child Services system that insures that individual parents are not slacking in their duties to their offspring(s) and the greater social well-being which those offspring(s) are here to serve.

The solution is not to simply give in to the stupidity of the masses as has been done every other time the legislators tried to jump the gun and preemptively regulate beyond the societies ability to teachegulate: Leave the stupid legal system as it stands, and focus on making people smart enough not to become slaves to such drugs (including alcohol) and the laws will become irrelevant. Oh, sorry, that's a long-term solution = generations to make truly sustainable change take place. That won't work for most of you impatient apes who think that any 'effective' social policy must show success in the span of one human life . . .

As a human biologist, I find myself strangely inline with a lot of right-wing fundamentalist views on 'moral' issues (abortion, legalizing pot, appeasing violence), but I think of it this way. On any one of these issues, imagine you are a parent of a 10 year. Imagine your 10 year old engaging in the behavior/act in question (getting an abortion at school during lunchbreak, buying pot at a school vending machine, being murdered by terrorists and then never vindicated in anyway) and then make your left-wing argument one more time . . . and yes, I count alcohol, and tobacco among the things that ideally SHOULD not be normalized by being legalized. But again, lets be rational: before alcohol can effectively be illegalized it would need to be abnormalized. Until we abnormalize it fully (as much for example as serial killing presently is in modern society) then there is little point in illegalizing it, as the need for a "costly war on drugs" demonstrates clearly.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:22:18 GMT

Kind of like building a wall along the Mexican border alone is a bad idea?

I don't know jerm, according to Ness, when he was here, in Canada there is not legalization, in the strictest sense, but there is decriminalization. How well is it working for them? Is it a bad idea in Canada? If not, can a good idea in Canada be a bad idea in the USA?

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

jerm — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:29:13 GMT

Yeah, I'm speaking to the issue in general, not necessarily this piece of legislation which is essentially taking a pocket knife to a situation that needs a machete. Decriminalizing only the possession will probably have a negative effect rather than a positive. You still have a black market but no way of punishing those who take part in it or leverage to go after the "bigger fish". IMO The federal government should just decriminalize the market completely and then start making regulations like with alcohol. Decriminalizing possession alone is probably a bad idea.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

cleopatra143 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:14:25 GMT

I have tried pot and it sucks. =P

Anyway, as much as I hate alcoholics, pot heads, etc. It isn't the gov's job to keep people from making personal choices on what they put in their bodies. Personally, I would be happy to support legislation that states that a person can use recreational drugs as long as they are not PUBLICLY intoxicated, doped up, etc. I know it isn't a popular stance but I don't want my government stipulating what Americans can or cannot drink/eat/take in their own homes. What someone does in the privacy of their own home isn't anyone's business, to a certain extent.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:14:11 GMT

Let us not forget, we are not talking about out and out legalization, but federal decriminalization. However slight, there is a difference. If you note in the original post I made it said this would not affect any state laws on the book, just federal ones. Some states have legalized medical marijuana, in defiance of federal laws. Other states have not. I don't know if any states have it on the books to completely decriminalize marijuana, or if the federal floodgates are the only thing blocking the way.

Jerm, you talk about the boon of regulation and taxation, however, you must remember we are talking about decriminalization here of possession. This legislation would not affect sales of marijuana, hell, growth of the plant, may still well be illegal in most cases (sans medical marijuana growers?). However, regarding the taxation specifically, let us not forget there is a TON of marijuana out there being grown in this country, and a TON of marijuana sales out there as well, even though all that is illegal. Just an observationhere, based on the prevalence of use in this country, but if you're smart about it, it's pretty hard to get caught (admittedly, as Bismarck points out, they call 'em Weed-heads for a reason). But on the other hand, given that there is so much marijuana out there, this legislation will not alter that, we will not see complete regulation, thus a black market will still exist, even if that market solely consists of exchane of the seeds to grow the plants, or even the dried herb itself, the feds will have to do a ton of work to get all the plant of the black market before full regulation can take effect. In other words, the tax windfall will not be that great. In other words, people can and will still grow their own, eliminating the need for a market, even if it is illegal to grow it, but not get caught with it.

And as Muk points out, the war on drugs has been a clossal failure.

I personally say if it grows in the ground, or in cowshit, if it grows period (like marijuana, opium, peyote and mushrooms) it ought to be legal, but if it is synthetic (like PCP, meth, heroin, crack cocaine) ban it.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

jerm — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:54:14 GMT

This has always been one of those few issues that Rk and I probably have almost identical views on. I suspect that Norway will probably get there first on this one.

Nuke, I get what you're saying on your first point but I think that people already sentenced would probably stay in prison. Your second point is the point though.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Nuclearcow — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:41:54 GMT

My 1st thought is that if people didn't break the law to become fond of marijuana, there wouldn't be a drive to legalize it, and now its just lawbreakers asking to make their habits legal after they broke the law.

My 2nd thought is more of a Libertarian type view, or summed up by referencing a quote by Clint Eastwood I saw on TV when he was talking about government. "They should just leave people the hell alone." (from memory, so perhaps not word for word ;) )

Anyways, I think both are true. :P I've never tried pot, btw, in case that somehow makes my opinion less or more valid.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Roadkill — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:08:24 GMT

-What is it now, 1 out of every 140 of the American population in prison? Half of them having committed a non-violent crime?

EDIT: Wouldn't bee too happy with the USA decriminalizing Marijuana before Norway though... ;)

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

jerm — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:41:46 GMT

I think it's pretty clear that use would go up, especially among young people. I won't use it just because it's legal. Also, other than for recreational use, weed [i]is[/i] destructive IMO. Most people use it recreationally but habitual users do have negative effects. This is a valid point but not a strong enough argument for me to have the substance outlawed. If alcohol is legal, marijuana should be legal. It seems inconsistent to have one but not the other. Alcohol is far more destructive and addictive. I even go as far to say all drugs should be made legal (though I don't argue that they're all equally "safe").

The larger point is that it would completely halt the black market on it. The criminal aspect will be shut down. The streets will be slightly safer, though weed is not the only drug out there. It'll even make the drug safer since it will have to disclose it's ingredients. This will save the taxpayer money and it will create revenue as well via taxation.

The bill will absolutely not pass. I can guarantee you that more people will write their congressman telling them to vote it down. Like it or not, it's not popular to "legalize it" in this country.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

-M- — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:57:37 GMT

Nor is drunkard any more flattering.

Point here is that War on drugs is costing a lot of money. Money that can be used elsewhere on more pressing matters.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Bismarck2990 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:01:35 GMT

Do I think it would increase? Well, duh, especially if people are allowed to carry it on their person and experiment openly without fear of being penalized for it. Also, the "professional" statement is pretty funny as well. There's a reason "weed head" isn't a compliment.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:53:48 GMT

Do you really think this is going to result in an increase? How many people in this country already use marijuana already? Millions. Many of them actually hold down professional jobs and are upright citizens too. Misconceptions.

RE: Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Bismarck2990 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:49:25 GMT

Yeah, America really needs more weed heads running around...

Decriminalize Marijuana in the USA

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:42:32 GMT

If you live in the USA write your rep. a quick email urging them to support HR 5843, especially if they are Republican! :w00t:

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/30/frank.marijuana/index.html]Legislators aim to snuff out penalties for pot use[/url]

[quote]

If HR 5843 were passed by the House, marijuana smokers could possess up to 100 grams -- about 3½ ounces -- of cannabis without being arrested. It would also permit the "nonprofit transfer" of up to an ounce of marijuana.

The resolution would not affect laws forbidding growing, importing or exporting marijuana, or selling it for profit. The resolution also would not affect any state laws regarding marijuana use. [/quote]

[quote]Rob Kampia, director of the Marijuana Policy Project, said marijuana arrests outnumber arrests for "all violent crimes combined," meaning that police are spending inordinate amounts of time chasing nonviolent criminals.[/quote]

[quote]The U.S. should stop arresting responsible marijuana users, Rep. Barney Frank said Wednesday, announcing a proposal to end federal penalties for Americans carrying fewer than 100 grams, almost a quarter-pound, of the substance. [/quote]

[quote]Allen St. Pierre, spokesman for the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML), likened Frank's proposal -- co-sponsored by Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas -- to current laws dealing with alcohol consumption. Alcohol use is permitted, and the government focuses its law enforcement efforts on those who abuse alcohol or drive under its influence, he said. [/quote]

Good ol' Ron Paul. Gotta love 'em. :)

The "War on Drugs" is a joke, and this legislation is a step in the right direction.