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RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:27:44 GMT

Couldn't agree with you more jerm. I've never heard of these feminist groups being Pro Abortion, but apparently they are out there. They are definitely on the fringe. As far as promoting the alternative options whilst being pro-choice, absolutely. I think that is the point Gov. Kaine was trying to make, that adoptions are one point that can be emphasized. But they are not the other thing. Better education, on sex and pregnancy, and as this can be a societal problem, teen moms going on welfare and so on, if parents won't educate their children on these issues, then the schools must. Abstinence works 100 percent of the time, for sure, but if you think kids are going to abstain 100 percent of the time, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to sell ya! Therefore contraceptives are going to have to become part of the discussion too. Like it or not the teens are going to want to see what the fun is all about, and often they're not thinking of the consequences. But how many abortions are coming from the teens? That link I provided says less than a fifth, so that's only part of the story. What do you do about the rest? Do you make 'em criminals because they do not want to carry the pregnancy to term? They have an abortion. It is a personal decision. Should it be a societal one? I don't advocate people have abortions, however sometimes the situations wherein one gets pregnant is less than ideal. They were raped, incest (meaning likely, they were raped), what if they were doing lots of drugs at the time they got pregnant, clearly that not good for the fetus. What if they simply don't want to go through with the pregnancy because it is inconvenient for them. Clearly they should have been more responsible in the first place. But that is their decision, not societies.

It's a very difficult issue, and that is why it is so controversial and divisive.

I didn't realize this was the abortion thread! :w00t:

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:03:15 GMT

Actually there is a feminist element which does seem to advocate abortion. Also, if the pro choice side is so pro choice, why is it that they don't promote adoption as an alternative? Push for choice but also promote alternatives.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:55:31 GMT

Who's advocating abortion Doc? Pro-Choice advocacy does not equal Abortion advocacy.

Unless, maybe, you're in Russia where there are more abortions than live births, annually...

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Scipio Africanus — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:36:46 GMT

I'm reminded of that Abe Lincoln quote, Nuke you used it recently . . . "Whenever I hear anybody advocating slavery, I think I'd like to see it tried on them."

You could replace "slavery" with "abortion" and you'd get the same result, no?

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:43:02 GMT

[quote]I don't want to vote for anyone who wants to kill babies[/quote]

Pro Choice people don't "want to kill babies". But, as Gov. Tim Kaine of Virginia so eloquently put it, they, in most cases also do not want to criminalize women (and their doctors) for making a very difficult decision. There are ways to reduce the "killing of babies" as the system stands today, and all such methods should be employed. The rates of abortion are on a [url=http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html]Steady Decline Since the 1980s[/url], which is a good thing but criminalizing this unGodly behaviour will make things worse off, not better. And it certainly will not stop abortions from happening.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Nuclearcow — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:34:29 GMT

Maybe its choice d) - he's a masochist and loves staring at blood and gore? ;)

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:46:13 GMT

Sorry, you can't pick three. Which one is [i]most[/i] correct (meaning most apt to your photo). :P

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Roadkill — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:50:16 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (8/21/2008)[/b][hr]Hey guys, it's another game of, "What the Hell is Roadkill Trying to Say!"

[game show music]

Is it that the practice of abortig babiesisn't as bad as or at least comparable to:

a.) torture
b.) war in general
c.) video games' influence on youth
d.) religion sucks

...only messin' with you Rk :P.[/quote]

-Shouldn't just one of the alternatives be correct instead of 3?

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:29:02 GMT

Hey guys, it's another game of, "What the Hell is Roadkill Trying to Say!"

[game show music]

Is it that the practice of abortig babies isn't as bad as or at least comparable to:

a.) torture
b.) war in general
c.) video games' influence on youth
d.) religion sucks

...only messin' with you Rk :P.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Nuclearcow — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:32:56 GMT

[quote]I think that saying that pro-choice candidates want to "kill babies" is a bit unfair.[/quote]*sigh* I knew it was a bad idea to respond honestly to LC's question.

Go start another thread on it and I'll join in. :sick:

(sarcasm) Yes, obviously pro-choice candidates obviously have nothing but the best of intentions for the unborn. Too bad for them that their mothers can vote and they cannot, or there might be more 'pro-life' politicians. (Go start another thread, you know you want to! :P )

Was that Roadkill-eese for "War is my hot topic button?" I think so, but sometimes its hard to be 100% sure. :P

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:40:38 GMT

What is that from Roadkill? Give us some context here.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Roadkill — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:56:37 GMT

[quote][b]Nuclearcow (8/21/2008)[/b][hr]Everyone has their hot button issues that are important to them. Lets say the economy is important to you, but no where near as much as the war, or the environment or whatever hot button issue you might have. I am very conservative when it comes to the abortion issue and I guess thats my hot button topic. I've avoided abortion debates on 1bc for this reason. ;)

I'll answer at risk of firing an opening volley for the debate I've avoided.... I don't want to vote for anyone who wants to kill babies, as I see it, even if its "just" the guy's backup (Vice Pres.). To quote Forrest Gump, "Thats all I have to say about that."[/quote]

-This is ok though:
[img]http://www.worldproutassembly.org/images/iraq-dead-bodies.jpg[/img]

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:17:52 GMT

I think that saying that pro-choice candidates want to "kill babies" is a bit unfair. I think there is a difference in allowing mothers to have an abortion in the first trimester and wanting to kill babies. I still think it's immoral, unless there are good reasons to do it but they're not the same thing.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Nuclearcow — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:01:16 GMT

Everyone has their hot button issues that are important to them. Lets say the economy is important to you, but no where near as much as the war, or the environment or whatever hot button issue you might have. I am very conservative when it comes to the abortion issue and I guess thats my hot button topic. I've avoided abortion debates on 1bc for this reason. ;)

I'll answer at risk of firing an opening volley for the debate I've avoided.... I don't want to vote for anyone who wants to kill babies, as I see it, even if its "just" the guy's backup (Vice Pres.). To quote Forrest Gump, "Thats all I have to say about that."

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:07:16 GMT

[quote]The slim chance I have of voting for McCain probably drops to 0 if he appoints a pro-abortion VP.[/quote]

Why NC, I'm curious, does the selection of the VP have such an impact on your decision, in this case?

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Nuclearcow — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:44:28 GMT

The slim chance I have of voting for McCain probably drops to 0 if he appoints a pro-abortion VP. Its interesting to hear that Rush Limbaugh was so vocal in 'warning' McCain that if he chooses Lieberman or Ridge, he will lose many conservatives and lose.

I wonder though... if he chooses Lieberman, wouldn't that entice many liberals and independents over to him? Would it be enough to over-come the loss of the conservatives he would lose? I mean, will those conservatives all write in someone else? Will they not-vote? I doubt it. People complain a lot and only sometimes act on it.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:26:22 GMT

...and lose mine :w00t:! Nah, I'd still vote for him but I doubt he'd win...

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:15:01 GMT

Hey, if McCain selects one of these pro-choice Veeps, like Tom Ridge or Joe Lieberman, hey may just get my vote!

:runs:

:w00t:

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:12:34 GMT

One's that will vote for McCain :w00t:

:runs:

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:30:22 GMT

[quote][b]How many Baptist suicide bombers you heard of recently?[/b] Thus my point: Baptist 99% non-violent religious freaks; Islamofascists 65% violent religious freaks.[/quote]

I got ya. To answer your question, none, of course. And that is exactly one of the main points the folks at Jihad-Watch make, all of the time. I guess I was speaking to something else, and that is that we must not fool ourselves into thinking that Islamofascists are only pursing their goals through violent means. The violent means are obvious. The non-violent tactics are not always obvious, and ones that we must be especially aware of.

What kind of a liberal says things like this? :w00t:

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Scipio Africanus — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:26:15 GMT

[quote][b]Locus Coeruleus (8/19/2008)[/b][hr][quote]Why can't Islamofascists learn some tricks like this?[/quote]

My point was doc, that Islamofascists do use tricks like that, more frequently than you might think. And if you don't think so, go take a browse through some of the headlines on Jihad-Watch and Dhimmi-Watch. It's not all violence and suicide bombs.[/quote]

How many Baptist suicide bombers you heard of recently? Thus my point: Baptist 99% non-violent religious freaks; Islamofascists 65% violent religious freaks.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:03:09 GMT

[quote]Why can't Islamofascists learn some tricks like this?[/quote]

My point was doc, that Islamofascists do use tricks like that, more frequently than you might think. And if you don't think so, go take a browse through some of the headlines on Jihad-Watch and Dhimmi-Watch. It's not all violence and suicide bombs.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:06:35 GMT

[quote]Regardless of whether there is freedom of religion or not, no selfrespecting censor would allow a ton of printed material to slip into the country without proper inspections.[/quote]

Key word being "censor" here.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

-M- — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:28:19 GMT

[quote]That may be, but why will they not return them since they are leaving?[/quote]

Beurocracy

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

ddmagnan — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:26:33 GMT

[quote][b]-M- (8/19/2008)[/b][hr]Regardless of whether there is freedom of religion or not, no selfrespecting censor would allow a ton of printed material to slip into the country without proper inspections. The fact that the printed material happens to have "Bible" for the title is irrelevant to the decision making.[/quote]

That may be, but why will they not return them since they are leaving?

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

-M- — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:05:57 GMT

Regardless of whether there is freedom of religion or not, no selfrespecting censor would allow a ton of printed material to slip into the country without proper inspections. The fact that the printed material happens to have "Bible" for the title is irrelevant to the decision making.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

ddmagnan — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:57:00 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (8/18/2008)[/b][hr]Cleo, I'm sure the guys who brought the bibles in knew full well that they may in fact be confiscated so they could then make a big deal about it. Nasty, troublemaking westerners...[/quote]

I think that they are trying to bring to light that there really isn't freedom of religion in China.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:42:04 GMT

[quote]Why can't Islamofascists learn some tricks like this? Would really break up the tedium of suicide-bomb this, suicide-bomb that, suicide bomb this again . . .[/quote]

You're not serious are you?

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Scipio Africanus — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:09:29 GMT

Nasty troublemaking religious-freak Westeners no less! :D

Why can't Islamofascists learn some tricks like this? Would really break up the tedium of suicide-bomb this, suicide-bomb that, suicide bomb this again . . .

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

jerm — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:38:13 GMT

Cleo, I'm sure the guys who brought the bibles in knew full well that they may in fact be confiscated so they could then make a big deal about it. Nasty, troublemaking westerners...

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:19:47 GMT

Because of the olympics, meaning that there is an extraordinary amount of foreign journalists in China and they cannot get away with as much as they usually could... just a guess...

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

-M- — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:59:16 GMT

The question is: "Why is this thing even headline news?"

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

cleopatra143 — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:50:54 GMT

[quote][b]Scipio Africanus (8/18/2008)[/b][hr]Religion not free. Neither "freedom." Must pay through service to Party. Work set you free. Thank Party; Party love you long time.[/quote]ROFL Well, as far as I'm concerned, you should know the law before you go into a country. If I'm going to bring 300 bibles into a country like China I'm going to find out how to do it without turning up "missing".

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Scipio Africanus — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:58:18 GMT

Religion not free. Neither "freedom." Must pay through service to Party. Work set you free. Thank Party; Party love you long time.

RE: China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

Nuclearcow — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:07:52 GMT

If they protest the Bible seizure too loudly, they'll end up getting "taken care of" as well. :P

China confiscates Bibles from American Christians

ddmagnan — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 09:43:25 GMT

I love this line:

[quote]The officer, who would only give her last name, Xiao, denied confiscating the Bibles. She said authorities were just "taking care" of them and provided no further details.[/quote]

[url]http://www.comcast.net/olympics/story.asp?i=20080817220379401573208&ref=hea&tm=&src=OLYMPICS_PREMIUM[/url]

[quote]

BEIJING (AP) A group of American Christians who had more than 300 Bibles confiscated by Chinese officials when they arrived in China is refusing to leave the airport until they get the books back, their leader said Monday.

Pat Klein said he and three others from his Vision Beyond Borders group spent Sunday night at the airport in the southwestern city of Kunming after customs officers took the Bibles from their checked luggage.

"I heard that there's freedom of religion in China, so why is there a problem for us to bring Bibles?" said Klein, whose Sheridan, Wyoming-based group distributes Bibles and Christian teaching materials around the world.

The Bibles were printed in Chinese, he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

The move comes as China hosts the Olympics in Beijing, where false media reports last year claimed Bibles would be banned from the games. The state-run China Daily reported last month that 10,000 bilingual copies of the Bible would be distributed in the Olympic Village, which houses athletes and media.

In China, Bibles are printed under the supervision of the Communist government. The officially atheistic country allows them to be used only in government-sanctioned churches and in some big hotels catering to foreigners.

A woman on duty at Kunming airport's customs office confirmed over the telephone late Sunday that 315 Bibles were found in the passengers' checked baggage.

The officer, who would only give her last name, Xiao, denied confiscating the Bibles. She said authorities were just "taking care" of them and provided no further details. She later said she was not authorized to speak to the media and referred questions to the national customs headquarters in Beijing, which did not answer phones on Sunday.

On Monday morning, Klein said Chinese officials had shown the group what they said were laws that banned bringing Bibles into China, but that the documents were in Chinese. "We are waiting for them to come back with the law in English," he said.

Chinese officials had asked the Christians to leave the room at the airport where they spent the night, but Klein told the officials they did not want to go without the Bibles.

Klein said the customs officers had told him that they could each have one Bible for personal use, but no more than that. He said the officers had videotaped them and were insisting that they leave the airport.

"We don't want to go without taking those books. It cost us a lot of money to bring them here," Klein said. "They're saying that it's illegal to bring the Bibles in and that if we wanted to, we had to apply ahead of time for permission."

China faces routine criticism for human rights violations and repression of religious freedom. Religious practice is heavily regulated by the Communist Party, with worship allowed only in party-controlled churches, temples and mosques, while those gathering outside risk harassment, arrest and terms in labor camps or prison.

A Chinese Christian activist was detained Aug. 10, the opening weekend of the Olympics, on his way to a church service attended by U.S. President George W. Bush in Beijing. A rights group said later that the activist, Hua Huiqi, a leader of the unofficial Protestant church in Beijing, had escaped from police and was in hiding.

Police have denied any involvement in Hua's disappearance.

[/quote]