1BC Civ Forums / Off Topic Discussions / More Than a Game, Civ in Real Life / Politics & Religion / 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes / Latest Posts

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

cleopatra143 — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:25:14 GMT

[quote][b]Nuclearcow (9/2/2008)[/b][hr]Understood, Biz. :) Likewise, I agree on maybe it wasn't a wise comparison for him to make.

I had heard that Mayan thing was the end of a symbolically winter season (that lasts years) for man, and it would normally be followed by a symbolic spring season (of a number of years) for man, but the Mayan calender just stops on that date rather than continuing. Interesting stuff to me as well.[/quote]They just ran out of room on their little rock tablet. =P

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Scipio Africanus — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 07:42:38 GMT

[quote]Wasn't Abe Lincoln an unproven with very little experience when he was elected President?[/quote]

No. He had been practicing law for decades, and fought his way up from being a poor, illiterate scrabble-rock farmer to being a Senator. Abe Lincoln had more experience and wisdom in his little finger than Obama has in totality.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Nuclearcow — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:19:17 GMT

Understood, Biz. :) Likewise, I agree on maybe it wasn't a wise comparison for him to make.

I had heard that Mayan thing was the end of a symbolically winter season (that lasts years) for man, and it would normally be followed by a symbolic spring season (of a number of years) for man, but the Mayan calender just stops on that date rather than continuing. Interesting stuff to me as well.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Bismarck2990 — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:49:54 GMT

Definetely wasn't reffering to you directly or implying you were socialist, I tend to agree with most of your posts. I was pointing more towards why I tend to diagree with Obama's views and statements. It's because of his socialized views more so then my party affiliation. :)

I'm also not arguing whether the infastructure is better there or not, I'm indifferent to the whole debate aside from I think "vastly" is a exaggeration. I'm just saying that comparing us to China isn't the most popular thing to do because it's obviously going to anger some people. Especially those already critical of the Chinese government.

EDIT:

[quote]Mayan calendar predicts the end of the current world: Dec 21st 2012. The end of the next presidential term.[/quote]

LOL :D

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

ddmagnan — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:43:03 GMT

I think Obama is the Anti-christ. :D

Comes preaching peace and unity. Check.

Charismatic and well spoken. Check. (This one is why I laughed when people claimed Bush was the anti-christ.)

Mayan calendar predicts the end of the current world: Dec 21st 2012. The end of the next presidential term.

Makes you think don't it.:D

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Nuclearcow — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:28:22 GMT

Biz, I don't think you were inferring anything towards me, but I'm definitely not Socialist and tend to be more Libertarian, small gov't, etc. Though I have never once voted for a Libertarian, so maybe it would be safer to say I tend to lean right, but usually favor a far smaller gov't than the Republican party seems to favor (especially so these last 8 years). I tend to vote my conscience and usually without party bias like many people claim who are dems/repubs, but I actually mean it, unlike most, IMO. Its not that I want to support or stick up for China or Obama, but I guess I find it ridiculous how many people blindly support and/or criticize things/people/countries/whatever based on their party lines or similar.

As far as China, I guess they cannot do anything better than us because of their evils. If you think they might be doing SOMETHING better than us, don't mention it because that means you're obviously pro-China and pro-evil. :crazy:

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Locus Coeruleus — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:33:05 GMT

Wasn't Abe Lincoln an unproven with very little experience when he was elected President? One term in the Senate and a couple of terms in the state legislature? Why, he even came from the very same state as Obama. Golly gee....

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Bismarck2990 — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:24:52 GMT

I think I'm more critical due to the fact I'm not a socialist.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Scipio Africanus — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:39:13 GMT

At the end of the day, it does not matter how awesome their ports, airports, highways, toilet faciltiies, trolley cars, nor street lights are by comparison to the U.S. The fact is that China is a totalitarian state where the common citizen does not have a right to free speech, a right to question the government as you are so fond of doing Mr Cow, nor a right to bear arms, etc.

Irrespective of how much dirty money they have spent on infrastructure in the areas where the Olympics cameras have been rolling up footage, "doing like them" and spending dirty money on infrastructure is not something the U.S. should aspire to, and Obama should be ashamed to even consider engaging in such yellow innuendo.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

jerm — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 19:05:55 GMT

[quote]As far as dumb things said, did you see the clip where he mentioned the Iraq-Pakistan border? (huh?) This is the stuff where if Bush said it, the clips would be everywhere. To be fair, I think he meant Afghanistan because he talks so often about Iraq and Afghanistan, it was a slip of the tongue, but you'll no doubt find You Tube clips on that one.[/quote]

I don't like these attacks on slips of the tongue. Everybody slips up like this (I do it all the time) and unless you think they meant what they said, it's stupid to bring them up. Besides, I've heard plenty of Obama slip ups as well but nobody seems to care.

[quote]Forget about accidental faux pas comments. How about championing a bill to allow all illegals immigrants to stay in America permanently? Thats pretty bad isn't it? Voting for illegals to get Social Security. What the? I think this is far worse than any slip of the tongue. He is HEAVILY a pro open-border guy and pro outsourcing, amnesty, etc. One more step towards the North American Union when he's elected. [/quote]

You make quite a few leaps in there. This isn't a slip but a difference of opinion. It's one of those things which made McCain not my number one pick... though I do agree with [i]some[/i] of those things... when they're not phrased in such a partisan way :P.

[quote]Did you watch the video you posted? Thats not what he said. Ports, train systems and airports are superior. It is not hard to tell who is anti-Obama or anti-Bush or anti-Clinton, etc from their comments.[/quote]

Ports, train systems and airports = infrastructure. That said, it's been a while since I've actually watched it so sorry I didn't get it perfectly. Here's what he says:

"...think about the amount of money China has spent on infrastructure. Their ports, their train systems, their airports are all vastly superior to us now, which means if you're a corporation, deciding to do business... you're starting to think, Bejing looks like a pretty good option."

It doesn't seem like a leap to think he was talking about infrastructure in general and then giving a few examples.

[quote]Do you think our train system is superior? Heck maybe India has a superior train system. Airports? We have fairly nice airports, but I've been to much nicer in Europe. Our airports are nice and well done, but we don't have the best airports. Ports? I am too ignorant to speak on it. But again, you can tell you're anti-Obama by putting more words in his mouth than what he said.[/quote]

India does not equal China. Europe does not equal China. How does he know that China's trains and airports are superior? What does superior even mean? They look nicer? As for ports, I have no doubt they are top notch actually. They ship things all over the world so I wouldn't doubt chinese ports are superior.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Nuclearcow — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 18:41:14 GMT

As far as dumb things said, did you see the clip where he mentioned the Iraq-Pakistan border? (huh?) This is the stuff where if Bush said it, the clips would be everywhere. To be fair, I think he meant Afghanistan because he talks so often about Iraq and Afghanistan, it was a slip of the tongue, but you'll no doubt find You Tube clips on that one.

Forget about accidental faux pas comments. How about championing a bill to allow all illegals immigrants to stay in America permanently? Thats pretty bad isn't it? Voting for illegals to get Social Security. What the? I think this is far worse than any slip of the tongue. He is HEAVILY a pro open-border guy and pro outsourcing, amnesty, etc. One more step towards the North American Union when he's elected. :P

Sorry Jerm. I gotta pick on you. ;)
[quote]I do have a hard time believing that China's infrastructure (as a whole) is vastly superior to ours. [/quote]Did you watch the video you posted? Thats not what he said. Ports, train systems and airports are superior. It is not hard to tell who is anti-Obama or anti-Bush or anti-Clinton, etc from their political comments. When you put those words in Obama's mouth, it does sound bad, but that is not what he said. Ports, train systems and airports.

Do you think our train system is superior? Heck maybe even India has a superior train system. We are a wealthy nation that prefers automobiles... so trains are way down on our list. Is that pro-communist or pro-China for Obama to say? Airports? We have fairly nice airports, but I've been to much nicer in Europe. Our airports are nice and well done, but we don't have the best airports as we are a nation that must get tax approval to upgrade airports and politicians don't last long if they raise taxes. Ports? I am too ignorant to speak on it. But again, you can tell you're anti-Obama by putting more words in his mouth than what he said.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

jerm — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:06:45 GMT

Also, people are free to give their side as well. If you have some examples of stupid things that McCain has said, (as Rish did) by all means, post em.

I do have a hard time believing that China's infrastructure (as a whole) is vastly superior to ours. I'd like to actually see some kind of data to back it up, then I may be convinced. Perhaps in a few metropolitian areas but a country isn't just made up of metros. What is the cost of these infrastructural improvements and are they justified by the ends? I'm not sure we should employ the same methods of building up our infrastructure that China has done.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

jerm — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:49:51 GMT

[quote]I doubt there is much Obama would say that would have you, Jerm or Biz (sorry to pick on you all) say anything positive about. I am not trying to criticize you in particular, Scip, but just wish people would rise about the partisan line.[/quote]

He looks like a nice fellow :w00t:.

Seriously, I will not make any bones about the fact that I'm pulling for McCain. I've said it before and I'll probably say it again, he wasn't my first choice, or my second, or my third actually but he's who I've got to live with. There is no perfect candidate other than jerm himself because he's the only one who shares all my views :hehe:. My goal is to get him elected so that Obama isn't elected. I don't think there's anything that I think actually qualifies him for being president. I could see myself voting for a democrat in cases where they were more preferable to a republican but this is not the time.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Rishbhav — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 17:39:11 GMT

I agree with you Scip, it's all smoke and mirrors, from both sides. By the way, this wasn't the first time McCain has shown his devious side: anyone remember the whole gas tax fiasco in which both Hillary and McCain supported temporarily suspending the federal gas tax despite a clear consensus of economists (perhaps the only such consensus ever) that such a move would be totally boneheaded? Yet they supported it anyway, in a cheap effort to pander to the populace.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Scipio Africanus — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 16:39:43 GMT

[quote][b]Nuclearcow (8/31/2008)[/b][hr]and if McCain said, "China spends lots of money on their infrastructure, which is something we should emulate"... would you unlease equal criticism about it? I doubt it.

Thats something about politics amongst the people that gets old. EVERYTHING the 'other' party does is bad, stated badly, maybe even 'evil,' etc, etc. And likewise, most things your party (not you specifically, Scip) does, says is brilliant, perfect, so obviously better, etc.

I doubt there is much Obama would say that would have you, Jerm or Biz (sorry to pick on you all) say anything positive about. I am not trying to criticize you in particular, Scip, but just wish people would rise about the partisan line.[/quote]

Such statements are abominations of rhetoric no matter who explicates them. If McCain said such a thing I would be equally critical.

Observe: I am highly critical of McCain's unprincipled decision to pander to the female special interest group by bringing in a virtually unknown female as his running mate. A smart strategy, perhaps but a principled resort to choosing the overall best running mate? I doubt it. If she is "the best person for the job" why have we heard nothing of her till now?

Obama shirked Hillary, creating the potential for a huge number of alienated Hillary-lovers; consequently McCain's team is making the strategically smart move of putting a woman on their team in hopes of stealing away a significant chunk of Hillaries ardent supporters. Nothing in such a decision necessarily has anything to do with who is the best LEADER. I'm critical of all of them for playing smoke and mirror games that have little really to do with what is best for the United States and lots to do with what is best for political parties. I am critical of our entire American way of life for it being like this. Why!? Why!? Why, can we not have REAL statesmen/women!?

I'll tell you why, America has grown more stupid as the bread and circuses have grown more beguiling.

I am critical of stupidity, irrespective of what party label or avatar it tries to hide behind.

[quote]I doubt there is much Obama would say that would have you, Jerm or Biz (sorry to pick on you all) say anything positive [/quote]

On this point I will tend to agree with you. Obama appears to be a first-rate charlatan who will say anything if he thinks it will get him elected.

Now that McCain has shown his ability to match Obama's used-car salesman mystique with an equally as shallow but effective-on-the-masses tactic, I don't know whether to abominate both of them equally, or simply to wish that the least nefarious wins. Indeed, in a contest of nefariousness, I can't say I have a clear read of which one of them is less wiley, calculating and ruthless. Perhaps the one who can win the insipid suite of parlor games is the best candidate even if the games are stupid? I suppose for a nation of clowns, the best clown/magician is perhaps the most suiting?

But in the end, McCain has more experience, and more proven ability and sucesses in the myriad of domains in which a President needs to be competent. On that basis I remain tentatively pro-McCain. Definitely anti-Obama, but as the lesser of two evils, tenuously pro-McCain . . . for now. We'll see what new treachery the two of them dream up before November . . .

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Nuclearcow — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:00:25 GMT

and if McCain said, "China spends lots of money on their infrastructure, which is something we should emulate"... would you unlease equal criticism about it? I doubt it.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

cleopatra143 — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 22:36:47 GMT

[quote][b]Scipio Africanus (8/30/2008)[/b][hr]What about the issue of _how_ the money the Chinese spent on infrastructure was gained? Would you care to actually address tihs point, or simply dismiss my response as a "rant and criticism?"

Saying "Why don't we try to improve our infrastructure like China," is analagous to referring to the mansions of some Criminal Kingpin who pimps, kills, and sells drugs and sayin "Why don't we try to improve our home and garden like the Capone family?"

Wake up people! China is a totalitarian state!! People in China cannot read this because they have an international firewall that censors out free speech. Most people in China live in rural poverty, and many live in urban poverty.[/quote]I dunno, that was basically my point to begin with. lol

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Scipio Africanus — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:54:40 GMT

What about the issue of _how_ the money the Chinese spent on infrastructure was gained? Would you care to actually address tihs point, or simply dismiss my response as a "rant and criticism?"

Saying "Why don't we try to improve our infrastructure like China," is analagous to referring to the mansions of some Criminal Kingpin who pimps, kills, and sells drugs and sayin "Why don't we try to improve our home and garden like the Capone family?"

Wake up people! China is a totalitarian state!! People in China cannot read this because they have an international firewall that censors out free speech. Most people in China live in rural poverty, and many live in urban poverty.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Bismarck2990 — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:23:29 GMT

I said the word vastly was a exaggeration. I never said they don't.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Locus Coeruleus — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:37:40 GMT

When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross!!!!! :w00t:

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Nuclearcow — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:26:06 GMT

Because they don't do anything better than us? EVER?

Come on guys. What the?

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Bismarck2990 — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:24:45 GMT

The word [b]vastly[/b] sounds like a exaggeration to me. The public transportation for cities like New York are great (I should know, I visited for a Kilo reunion last month and had no problem going around the whole city). On the comment itself, I don't believe it is very bad on his part. It's definitely not the best nor most popular idea to say we should strive to be like any communist country in any regard though.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Nuclearcow — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:21:33 GMT

This was during the Olympics (giving China a small kudo on something) and he was taking 1 small comment about us spending our own money on our infrastructure like China has been lately. Nothing about raping Borneo, piracy, going fascist, communist or anything like that, Scip. Come on, seriously.

For all that stuff you said about voting your conscience and not goose-stepping your party lines, you sure sound an awful lot like the ultra ultra, right winged Republicans on many of your judgments and criticisms.

Their ports, train systems and airports are superior to ours. Thats what he said. That equals all that other stuff? Come on...

Do you believe he's wrong on their ports, train systems and airports? I doubt it, but its Obama, so... unleash the rant and criticism.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

jerm — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:27:18 GMT

Thank you Scipio for explaining it. I started to last night and just decided to go to bed. I wasn't saying it's a really liberal statement, I'm not saying we don't need infrastructure, I'm saying it's a very ignorant statement. "China's infrastructure is [b]vastly[/b] superior to ours"? While 7.9 earthquake is a big quake, I think that an infrastructure that was vastly superior to ours would mean that 70,000 people wouldn't have been killed and that 10 million people wouldn't have been left homeless.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Locus Coeruleus — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:01:02 GMT

fair enough, I honestly don't think what Obama said was all that great of a statement, I think he prolly said it because the Olympics were going on and Beijing was in the news at the time. I'd also hazard a guess that he was talking more about the ends and not the means, as you suggest, he just didn't frame it well. It's nothing to scoff at, it was just an ill prepared statement. Hey, sometimes the Messiah is prone to do such things! :w00t:

But as for China, well, yes, they are autocrats and that is nothing to take lightly, but their society has also opened up quite a bit in the last.....since Tienamen. Hopefully they keep moving in that direction! ;)

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Scipio Africanus — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:53:56 GMT

[quote]Did someone say something about infrastructure????[/quote]

How exactly do you think the U.S. could "improve its infrastructure like the Chinese?"

Referring to Mr. Obama's words.

The claim that their infrastructure is "vastly superior" I find frankly hard to believe, and would like to see proof of that.

Mr. Obama says "Imagine the amount of money they've spent on infrastructure . . ." Yes Mr. Obama and lets also imagine where that money CAME from: raping the jungles of Borneo, piracy of various small consumer goods, unethical business practices in Africa and around the world.

Mr. Obama says "Why should'nt we be doing the same?" why not? Because we are a democracy who strives to make money through honest and ethical means?

Oh, of course. We could institute autocratic extraction of the modes of production from the peasantariat the way China does, along with profoundly unjust overseas trade policies . . .

China's improvements have not been paid for through fair trade, fair labor, and humane and environmentally sustainable policies, they have been paid for through corruption, exploitation, piracy of myriad sorts, oppression of labor and harboring of illegality in the heart of Chinese commerce. To hold up China's improvements as some sort of standard is akin to holding up the improvements in Germany in the 1930s also acquired through state control by a totalitarian regime that suppresses dissent, censors a free press, and imprisons dissidents without due process.

I am absolutely disgusted, indeed incensed that you smartaleck twits could even suggest that this rhetoric was anything less than idiotic, let alone insidious. You should be ashamed to be so willing to overlook the means by which the Chinese ends in infrastructure have been gained, and those comments right there should knock Mr. Obama right out of the running; but I'm sure they will not.

Why? Race.

If it is wrong to support a man because his skin is beige, how can it be any less wrong to support him because his skin is brown? The more snippets I see from this campaign the more utterly disgusted I am with the Left, the Democratic party, Obama, and the state of American society in general.

If Obama had even 1/3 the realworld experience of McCain I would gladly consider backing him largely irrespective of specific policies, because I doubt that either one differs radically from the other in that respect.

But to support him despite him having merely 1/30th the experience of McCain primarily because of his youth and his so-called "race" is the epitomy of hypocrisy and repugnance.

An excellent, even a very good candidate who was "Black" would be a great thing for our nation and I would happily join in supporting such a candidate and applaud the wonderful precedent which the First Black President would establish. However, a deplorable candidate such as Mr. Obama who is "Black" is not justified as a means to the ends of achieving the First Black President.

Perhaps if Obama wishes to suggest a need for infrastructural improvements in the U.S. it would provoke less negative response from some of us if he simply said "we need to be putting more of our money into infrastructure," instead of suggesting that we are being whupped by the Chinese and suggesting we should "do like they do," to reallocate more of our blood and treasure to infrastructure.

Utterly disgusting PR tactic . . .

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Locus Coeruleus — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:01:01 GMT

Communism isn't evil, it's just flawed, seriously flawed. What's evil is Russian Imperialsim held under the banner of Communism!!! The Evil Empire, if you will. HA-ha-ha!

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

cleopatra143 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:59:10 GMT

What happened to "communism is the great evil"? :D

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Locus Coeruleus — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:42:04 GMT

That's what I am thinking too NC, I mean, I was expecting Obama to suggest we emulate China in our human rights pursuits! :w00t:

What?

Did someone say something about infrastructure????

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2728/bridgecollapse03zr8.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Come on, jerm, you can do better than this, surely. China are no saints, they are lower than us on the saintly scale, but they are not an enemy, they are not evil, what point exactly are you trying to make here? China is a different culture, they are a collectivist society, we are an individualistic society. But it is essential that both types of societies have strong infrastructures.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Nuclearcow — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:16:16 GMT

Jerm, I watched that video expecting some scandalous comment where it was soooo liberal, that it was borderline communist.

Instead, you post a comment about him saying we should spend lots of money on our own infrastructure like China? huh?

Are you trying to sway us to Obama with that video? ;)

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Scipio Africanus — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:30:09 GMT

I started to watch about 45 seconds of election media hype this evening when I got on the treadmill. Felt a strong sensation to barf, so I switched it to PBS. Something about the Range Creek Canyon archaeological sites, much more interesting.

I have the same feeling just reading Jerm's post, seeing the still frame of Fast Eddie, and imagining based on past comments of similar idiocy what he says in that clip . . . I'll pass on watching it for now; don't need to be bummed out for the night. But glad to hear you chime in Cleo. Lets pray that this showman does not win.

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

cleopatra143 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:59:01 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (8/28/2008)[/b][hr]Apparently Obama thinks we should be more like China:[/quote]He is such a *!&#. I hope he realizes how much the people of China suffer so that Beijing can have good "infrastructure".

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

jerm — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:43:20 GMT

Apparently Obama thinks we should be more like China:

RE: 'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

Scipio Africanus — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 06:42:13 GMT

Sometimes it appears there is no justice in the world. But in the long run, the elites who control China will receive their just desserts. You know they are sweating bullets, because in many ways they are unable to keep the external and internal forces that threaten their authority at bay. In the long run, it WILL prove impossible, and change will certainly come.

'Other’ China is still alive behind the scenes

ddmagnan — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:37:53 GMT

[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26322657[/url]

[quote]

BEIJING -

The athletes are like pretty kites flying overhead, so mesmerizing that they distract from the grimmer realities of the Beijing Games, just as the Chinese government hoped they would. But don't forget the "other" China. As a reminder, consider the name Hu Jia. There are actually two famous Hu Jias in this country, one a renowned gold medalist in diving, and the other a jailed dissident. Between them, they tell the full story of these Olympics.

The apartment of the dissident Hu Jia is in a neighborhood called Freedom City, not far from the Olympic Park, or rather it was, before he was thrown into a labor camp and his wife, Zeng Jinyan, a prominent activist, disappeared from Beijing just before the Games began.

The diver Hu Jia, who triumphed in Athens four years ago, is not here either, because at the age of 25, after years of hitting the water for six hours a day in the pitiless national program, he has retina injuries that prevented him from going for the "enormous glory" of a gold in Beijing. "I will do my utmost to grab one, unless my eyes are really blind," he told the state media before he was forced to bow out.

It's easy for the head duckers of the International Olympic Committee to separate themselves from the underlying issues of the Beijing Games by labeling them "apolitical." But the Greek word "polis" means an affair of the state, and the Beijing Games clearly qualify as one, from their $40 billion governmental price tag, to the bulldozing of thousands of lives to make way for the stadiums, to a seven-year crackdown on social activists by the hosts, which is still going on.

On Wednesday, this purported superpower sentenced a couple of old women, aged 77 and 79, to a year of labor reeducation because they filed for a permit to protest eviction from their homes at one of the supposedly "official" Olympic demonstration sites. This is just one of the brazen evils perpetrated here in the name of "apolitical" sport. China also retains its title as the world's leader in jailing journalists. If the IOC wanted an Olympics separate from Chinese politics, it should have staged them in Tahiti.

The Chinese government has counted on sparkling pyrotechnics, anthems and a happy motto — "One World, One Dream" — to obscure the real price of the Games. But it's obvious in the state's fixation on gold medals that the Olympics are a deadly win-at-all-costs national project. Just as Beijing has been beautified with landscaping and postered walls that conceal poorer neighborhoods, the glitter of gold seems to be interpreted as evidence of both prowess and progress.

China has engaged in state-sponsored cheating — apparently forging the birth dates of underage female gymnasts — and driven its athletes like an aggressive stage parent. Other nations do this, too, and no one will ever equal the Soviets or East Germans for federally funded cheating. But there is a special patriotic urgency to winning here that's unmistakable. Mere participation in the Games is not enough, and neither is silver or bronze, which are causes for shame. Some athletes have said that anything less than a gold medal will render all their previous accomplishments meaningless.

The diver Hu Jia, the son of workers from Wuhan in the Hubei province in central China, has barely seen his parents since he entered the national program at the age of 9, like most of the country's prodigies. In Athens he was a marvel on the 10-meter platform, defeating his countryman Tian Liang with a series of helix-like dives that earned nine perfect scores of 10.

But a year later, Hu underwent surgery for a detached retina, and has been plagued with eye and shoulder problems ever since. According to the New York Times, a study has shown that 24 percent of Chinese divers have retina damage, probably a result of the intensity with which they practice, and the repetitive impact with the water.

Hu's father was quoted in the Chinese media as saying that had he known his son might work himself blind on the national team, "I would never have sent him off to dive." Still, Hu was apparently insistent that the risk to his eyes was worth the attempt to make the team in Beijing.

I kept hoping to the bitter end and finally had to see that it was hopeless," he was quoted as saying to a Chinese media outlet.

On the opposite end of the patriotic spectrum is activist Hu Jia, long a heroic advocate for the disenfranchised. Hu has worked for government accountability on everything from the Olympics to AIDS. He was instrumental in helping to publicize the HIV epidemic in the rural province of Henan, detailed in the riveting book "China Road" by NPR correspondent Rob Gifford. About 300,000 people in Henan contracted HIV as the result of a bureaucratic plasma-selling scheme in the 1990s.

Hu is spending 3 1/2 years in a labor camp for insisting that China keep the human rights promises it made in bidding for the Olympics. He dared to try to hold the Beijing Organizing Committee at its word when it declared that the Chinese state would use the Games to "enhance all social conditions, including education, health and human rights."

Among other things, Hu signed a petition stating, "We want human rights, not the Olympics." This spring, he was put on trial at Beijing's Number One Intermediate People's Court for subversion. No observers or reporters were allowed to attend. After he was sentenced, his mother described what had happened in the courtroom. Her summary should stand as the alternative motto of the Beijing Games.

"He was found guilty of speaking his mind," she said.

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