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RE: Unofficial poll for war

tones — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:20:12 GMT

[quote]The AI is not human and there's no reason to expect human-like reactions from them.[/quote]

Aaargh, no! You mean.... the computer programmers are fallible???

Run , run for the hills.

No, the supermarkets, run for the supermarkets...

the hills....

noooo...

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Bismarck2990 — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:13:33 GMT

[quote][b]grandgeneral (8/17/2007)[/b][hr]bismark, bismark, you keep missing the point that a major war could show the nations of our world who is the best, and what the benefits on the long run will be. people, if we begin war now, we will have the advantage, are they not technologically weaker than us? and if a city on the east point established, then would we have the additional city we need? a city on the Kandian coast would allow us access to french waters, and thus give us the ability to launch a preemptive strike.[/quote]

The AI is not human and there's no reason to expect human-like reactions from them.

Any war in the present, will only hurt us diplomatically with France and its Friends. There would be no modifier in the game that would make the other AI civilizations take us more seriously, respect us more, or think we are better then them. It's Constant, that the only modifier, would be negative with France and its Friends.

Once again, I still can't see anything logical in attacking the French now besides the 'oh, just attack them because they're next to us,' argument. My expected result if we began a war now, is that there would be nothing gained to justify it. There would be no city worth the effort gained (if any at all, which I doubt there would be) and we would just force ourselves to worry about French galleys pillaging the sea-side (which we would be forced to defend against).

On the other point, even if we established a city on the Eastern Coast, what makes you think it would be able to provide the units needed to attack the French? There would be no pre-existing infrastructure in place and the production is of course going to be slow. Thus, any established city in the near future on the East Coast is going to prove minimal in action taken against the French militarily... in truth, it's just another place garrisoned by defending troops.

France is minor at best in regards to threats towards the Community.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

jerm — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:59:49 GMT

[quote]but france is the largest nation close to us, am i correct?[/quote]

That is yet to be seen. We have no idea how large the Aztecs are or the Egyptians.

[quote]but the aztecs are a nation away[/quote]

This is false. All one has to do is look... well here you go:

[url=http://1bcciv.com/Attachment656.aspx]western continent[/url]

Tiwanaku (sp?) is closer to our continent than Thebes.

[quote]and i believe them to be a minor threat. but in the long run, france WILL become an aggressor[/quote]

Based on what. My experience has shown that the Aztecs are much more agressive than the French. We don't know how large the Aztec nation is or how strong it's military is.

[quote]and pretty soon will settle on our continent.[/quote]

This is true but I'd rather fight them once they are on our soil than a continent away. It's just not necessary to take offensive action. The AI sucks at cross continental warfare and we'd take out any frence settlements easilly. I understand you may be itching for some action but the timing is just not right. Let's wait until we have a few more cities and more of an army to deal with them. Our starting location unfortunately or fortunately means no wars of conquest until we at least have our continent filled with our culture. In 1000 years, I will likely be right there with you. ;)

RE: Unofficial poll for war

grandgeneral — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:57:53 GMT

bismark, bismark, you keep missing the point that a major war could show the nations of our world who is the best, and what the benefits on the long run will be. people, if we begin war now, we will have the advantage, are they not technologically weaker than us? and if a city on the east point established, then would we have the additional city we need? a city on the Kandian coast would allow us access to french waters, and thus give us the ability to launch a preemptive strike.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Bismarck2990 — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:45:51 GMT

There is on clear indicator here that the French AI will become 'aggressive' in nature towards the Community. While there is the fact that the French expanding onto our continent is indeed likely, I am unable to see where it demands offensive action on our part.

In my mind, if the French did settle a city upon our continent, we could raze any settled city or capture any settler relatively easily. After such, the resulting war could also be handled relatively easily if we equipped ourselves with the needed naval units to defend our costal interests (fishing boats). It seems contstant, that such a war with the french will come down to costal pillaging as would any aggressive action taken against them in the present would. I'm also convinced there is no real possibility of french units stepping onto Community soil in either scenario.

On the other note, I'm in agreement that the game would probably see better waters if restarted with BTS. There would be more opportunities for people to become involved, however, at the cost of throwing away all the effort put into the current game.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

grandgeneral — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:22:06 GMT

i have another idea. ill make a poll of war vs all other known nations, and we vote their. now let me list:
vs france
vs egypt
vs aztecs
vs mystery nation
no war

i think war is inevitable, and we must be the first to get it, and if we are on the receiving end of an army, then i would rather be on the offense at that time, on foreign soil.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

grandgeneral — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:14:32 GMT

but france is the largest nation close to us, am i correct? but the aztecs are a nation away, and i believe them to be a minor threat. but in the long run, france WILL become an aggressor and pretty soon will settle on our continent. we need to build a city on the east coast anyway, right? so we should start an armada and a new city on the east coast. and in the future, it would be an advantage to have more cities, maybe not immediately, but all invaders need time to settle in. my point is, france will want war, and i believe an inevitable strike is necessary.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

tones — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:36:58 GMT

[quote]I for one would like to see the whole thing restarted as BTS. [/quote]

I have to agree, but only for selfish reasons I'm afraid because BTS is the only version that I can get working. You'd all have to pour a lot of time and effort down the drain of course but, looking deep into the crystal ball, which of you really thinks this Warlords Dgame is actually going to finish this side of 2010, if ever?

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Tosk — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:23:52 GMT

There are more than a few differences ... in fact there are more than quite a few differences.

I for one would like to see the whole thing restarted as BTS. cIV and Warlords were both just to weak from the get go to draw any real support.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Scipio Africanus — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:57:48 GMT

I think what he means Mongoose is that someone would open the existing save game in the World Builder and save it as a World builder file. At that point there would be two options. One would be to simply "copy" the entire map (a laborious and probably unnecessary task), or open that Worldbuilder file in BTS, else change it to some format that BTS can then open. It might be necessary to use the Admin passwords and it might be that the person would catch glimpses of the map or something, although I doubt that would be an issue. In any event, we could simply try to get someone from Civfanatics who is not in this Dgame and who can be trusted not to spill the beans to do it. I cannot believe it if Firaxis has not thought this through and made BTS backwards compatible with both Vanilla and Warlords maps and Worldbuilder files. The only real hitch might be whatever settings were set up in the launch window. Doesn't one of those do something like lock it down so that no one can ever go into the Worldbuilder or something? Maybe not, I think an admin can always get into a worldbuilder file even for a PBEM .sav file.

There are a couple early game differences between Warlords and BTS. For example that Shwedagong something Wonder, and maybe some units too. Not sure how that would work out.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

mongoose201 — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:30:08 GMT

We can't replicate what we can't see... There is even still a civ we have yet to meet, I believe.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Rishbhav — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:15:22 GMT

I suppose you could go into WorldBuilder and preciseley replicate the save, but I don't know who'd want to do that....

RE: Unofficial poll for war

jerm — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:39:30 GMT

That's because the Mgame is special. You're competing with the community, not the AI. The real game comes second. I recon it would be fun with the origional Civ. Anyway, I agree we should switch to BtS if we could. We could certainly simulate what we have via Advanced start but it would mess up the AI. I'm afraid we're stuck for the moment.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Rishbhav — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:10:19 GMT

True..... Its about time they built some kind of savegame compatibility feature in between expansion packs, though it'd probably be horrendous to code....

Then again, the Monarchy Game is Vanilla, and its plenty fun [/shamless plug]

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Scipio Africanus — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:34:51 GMT

Gentlemen! You can't fight in here; this is the war room!

Since we're only on like a 65% disadvantage from difficulty level, why don't we just declare war on everybody and let them come to drive us back to the Stone Ages so that we can get the BTS version Democracy Game going?

BTW, anyone know if it is _possible_ that this game could be reloaded as a BTS game?? There would like be some snags of some sort, but if it were possible then it would certainly be a smart thing to do.

Lets face it, in our "planned obsolesence" consumer society which Sid and company are eagerly luring us along through like the Pied Piper, if you are playing with the latest toys, it just ain't as much fun. I'll be honest, I for one am going to find it hard to remain quite _as_ strongly interested in any Warlord's based games from here on :w00t:

RE: Unofficial poll for war

swordinthestorm — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:25:26 GMT

[quote][b]jerm (8/15/2007)[/b][hr]If they settle on our continent, then yes, war with France is innevitable but until then, it is not. [/quote]

I have a feeling that the french will be the aggressors here and we need to prepare. Soon.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

jerm — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:04:22 GMT

If they settle on our continent, then yes, war with France is innevitable but until then, it is not.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

swordinthestorm — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:56:19 GMT

who here thinks that a war with france is inevitable?

if you dont then planning for it may seem a waste of time but wouldn't it be better to be prepared. I say that weather it's us or france that declares war in unimportant. the important thing is that we are prepared for it.

This requires a number of things.

[quote][b]Comedy Dave (8/14/2007)[/b][hr]I think we need to consolidate our continent somewhat and improve our naval and warfare techs before going to war with anyone.[/quote]

Developing our supply lines for a war with france is certainly one of the most important measures. Our obvious target would Lyon. That city added to a eastern coastal city on our island would enable a steady supple of troops crossing. It would also remove the only costal city into the Kandian Straits securing our crossing.

Military, Naval Technology.

Right now we have a technology advantage BUT we do not have the resources or the man power to support a serious Conquest. Like Biz said a war now would create a enemy in the east and probably destroy our fishing fleet. Because we are an island nation Our navy is of vital importance. Before any campaign can be seriously considered we need dedicated military naval vessels to protect our troops during a crossing and to prevent a french army from landing on our lands. We should keep this in mind for future research.

Our International Reputation, and Progress.

It would silly to think that an invasion of france would have no international repercussions. We need to know who likes and dislikes the french NOW. We need to eliminate a posibility of the French forming an alliance with Germany AND/or Arabia. They need to be on our side or kept Neutral. I am sure we will get requests very soon to end trades with germany from france or visa versa. The senate will need to consider our millitary objectives before deciding these issues. As a national security must any relationship between France and Aztec's needs to be soured as soon as possible.

4> Religion

Salidin should be prevented from adopting the same religion as france. Could we convert them to Judaism. Keep them under our religion but not on the same page as france.

I am sorry LC if these point dont satisfy all your critiria but its all i can do without actually having a look in the game.

I just want to be clear. I do not want to go to war with france in the next turns or the next 50 turns. I want to prepare the conditions for a victorius, profitable and quick war against france some time far into future of our nation.

At the next turn report i will review these points and change them accordingly as the game develops

RE: Unofficial poll for war

tones — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:06:05 GMT

[quote]tones... I will hereby invoke vC!!! [/quote]

Thanks for quoting that LC. I couldn't be bothered to look it up but that's exactly what I meant!

RE: Unofficial poll for war

jerm — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:58:45 GMT

I have to admit that I saw this poll and thought, did I miss several turns? War with France? Right now? Now way. In the future I suppose we can consider it. I'd like to address this:

[quote]yes egypt is closer and weaker but they would be a effective ally againt the aztecs.[/quote]

This BEGS the question. Why not attack the Aztecs first? They are close and not our... er uh.. well you get it. If we don't take them out 1.) Egypt will or 2.) they'll fight with Egypt and weaken our ally. There's a much stronger case to be made for invading the Aztecs than the French and I don't even think we should invade the Aztecs right away either.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Bismarck2990 — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:22:32 GMT

There's nothing to gain from such at this point in time.

Best case scenario I see from such is, we declare war and due to the minimal amount of troops we'd be able to pump into the French borders (in adequate time), the 'war' would simple come to French Galleys entering our borders and simply pillaging every fishing boat they manage to lay their vessels on. Of course, eventually, peace would be delcared and we'd have our annoyed neighbor to the east and nothing gained.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Locus Coeruleus — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:20:55 GMT

tones... I will hereby invoke vC!!! :) (and by virtue of vC, the Powell Doctrine, derived, at least in part, from vonClausewitz's [i]On War[/i], itself.

[quote]I have a number of questions that all must be answered satisfactorily before I would consider voting yes. I don't intend to make this difficult or impossible, I just want to ensure that our nation is doing the correct thing for the correct reasons at the correct time.

[i]Is a vital national security interest threatened?

Do we have a clear attainable objective?

Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?

Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?

Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?

Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?

Is the action supported by the Citizenry of the nation?

Do we have genuine broad international support?[/i]
[/quote]

Answer me these questions, then, we may be ready for war. If you fail to answer these questions satisfactorily war will be an utter failure, setting us back centuries!

Get on with it! ;)

RE: Unofficial poll for war

tones — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:12:39 GMT

Good Lord, what madness. I really wish VC was around.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

swordinthestorm — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:43:00 GMT

[quote][b]Bolan Longpants (8/14/2007)[/b][hr]I am stunned by this poll. First of all we don't even have a city at the east coast. For a successful war we need to get decent supply lines to cities on the eastern coast. [/quote]

This will all be addressed in the planning stages of war. Nobody in their right mind declares war with preparing for it. Now is the time to think about doing this. We dont need to build the city or the units yet, i am just suggesting that a comprehensive plan of action be drawn up against them.

[quote]You can't just go to war just for the sake of it; we need to prepare it and the preparation often takes more time than the war itself. [/quote]

I know, and i want this preperation or at least a preliminary plan of conflict to comence now, highlight weak spots and choose our ground. Maybe a public vote to declare a member of the senate as a war minister, who can make these plans and show them to the goverment. who then vote on implementing them

[quote]If you really want a war, the Egyptians are a bit closer to our capitol.:P[/quote]

yes egypt is closer and weaker but they would be a effective ally againt the aztecs. Plus we are currently trading alot of important techs with them. They are our ***es now and you dont hit women.
but saying that we should probably develop a martial plan of action against every nation. to be on the safe side.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Comedy Dave — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:53:51 GMT

I would say no at this stage. Bolan is correct, we need a lot more preparation before considering a war.

I think we need to consolidate our continent somewhat and improve our naval and warfare techs before going to war with anyone.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

Bolan Longpants — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:00:27 GMT

I am stunned by this poll. First of all we don't even have a city at the east coast. For a successful war we need to get decent supply lines to cities on the eastern coast. You can't just go to war just for the sake of it; we need to prepare it and the preparation often takes more time than the war itself. If you really want a war, the Egyptians are a bit closer to our capitol.:P

RE: Unofficial poll for war

swordinthestorm — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:35:00 GMT

[quote][b]grandgeneral (8/12/2007)[/b][hr]I think, unofficially, that we should go to war to france.[/quote]

Yes abosultly. French aggression cannot be tolerated for much longer. Their very presence is an insult to us, but we must bide our time.

[quote]Such a war, would expand our borders, boost economy, eliminate a possible threat, and demonstrate to the whole world our might,[/quote]

It would expand our borders but it would strech our millitary to what i fear could be breaking point, i am convinced that a war so early could be detremental to us. Our economy would suffer with the cities we capture. the maintanence would effect our income and thus effecting our research. Wait for courthouses.

we have no seige weapons. We will need those especially for the capture of paris.

Grand General i am 100% behind you with the french being a nessesary casulaty but we should only be in the planning stages. Now is not the time for action. Lets plan our attack and wait until the timing is right.

nice poll. it will be intersting to see how many are with us and how many are with the french.

RE: Unofficial poll for war

swordinthestorm — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 04:04:49 GMT

A war would be good but it is a tad too early i think to declare war. A task force should be established to

1 check french military strenght

2 designate which city's produce what soldiers, what roads to build, will we need another costal city to carry soldiers to france.

3 envisage our supply lines.

4 find what other civ's could be persuaded to join us

At this stage a war to capture their citys would be too costly but if we could damage their infastructure significantly it could weaken them enough to eliminate any threat that they might pose.

Saying that, the war should be planed but not implemented yet. We arent ready but it could be usefull to have a plan of operations to refer to and review in the very likely senario of a war with france. Also if they attack we would also be prepared.

Unofficial poll for war

grandgeneral — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:51:06 GMT

I think, unofficially, that we should go to war to france. Such a war, would expand our borders, boost economy, eliminate a possible threat, and demonstrate to the whole world our might (i know that statement makes me sound like hitler), and make it possible to get to meet the last nation. i think it would be wise for the senators and the president, to hear our opinion, unofficially.