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3/28/2004 3:19 AM


Conscript Rabbi

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Enlarge your land, make your neighbors flip

I have developed a technique for expansion at the expense of my neighbors without going to war. The approach is very simple and not used by the AI and not even discerned by it, so you can go about your aggression without agravating them.

I am sure that if I ever go about trying this strategy on a large scale, I might have cities flipping to me all the time, but that I haven't done yet. I have used it on opportunity.

I call this strategy 'mitnachlim', which is the hebrew word for settlers. With 'mitnachlim' we also refer to those israeli's who make their settlements in the occupied territories, right under the nose of the Palestinians and that is exactly the thing I do in Civ.

Normally, nobody would plant a city one tile away from a foreign city. But this is what I do in order to obtain the land by settlement and not by war. It takes money (exactly as with the real life 'mitnachlim', who are financed from the outside and hardly sustain themselves) and I use the money to quickly build culture in the city. It is just a matter of time that the neighbor flips to me. Of course, as soon as he has flipped, I have two cities that are too close to each other to be viable. What I do is; I drain the foreign city with workers and settlers and eventually abandon it.

On a large scale this strategy involves planting my cities on my border, as close to the neigbor as possible. And in open land, where everybody is rushing to the scene: I plant them at every open spot that is available. Then I invest in temples and libraries and I sit back to have the foreigners flip to me.

On the borders of my core land, this strategy involves a higher investment of money (all cultural buildings must be built) and the harvest is not so big in the sense of number of cities that eventually flip. The cities that I neighbor are too close to their own core to easily flip. But if they do, they are a considerable blow to the strategical coherence of the neighbor. I have found myself closing in on my neighbor until his capital. The capital never swings naturally, but having a capital on the border is ineffective for him. Needless to say, I need maximum culture in the border cities, also to prevent them flipping to the competition.
An additional point of interest in this core to core competition that I also appreciate is the amount of tiles that flip to me. I have managed to obtain resources on the border and simply minimize the amount of land a foreign city can use. In the case where I closed in on the neighbor's capital, I occupied three tiles of his sphere, thus lowring his productive capabilities. All of this is gain.

In remote areas, I can have the foreign cities flip in a matter of turns. Therefore, an area that starts out as a patchwork of nationalities, can be turned into exclusively mine if I set my mind and my money to it.
In these remote areas, I must understand that the cities I build are costing money and I must irrigate the land and have as many tax collectors in the city as possible, to minimize the upkeep.
Still, the investment is worth it. My expansion is considerable and I get to control resources galore, This in turn generates money and allows me to continue grabbing land by simply settling it.

I am sure you all thought of this, but I have not seen any post where this was layed down in a strategy.

Currently I have no access to the screenshots I made. In consecutive posts I will throw in a few samples of my achievements with this approach.
3/28/2004 10:02 AM


Elite Warlord

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I also sometimes intentionally put my cities "too close" to AI cities hopeing they will flip. The city can then be stripped as you say (don't forget to sell off any improvements they managed to build). If they don't they are then close enough for a quick attack when a war starts. In the 2nd case I usually simply destroy the city.

I usually use this to get rid of those pesky "back door" cities the AI loves to sneak into the middle of your territory, or to target 1-2 border citys for a specific reason. I've never used it on a large scale as you are proposing but I think it could be effective under the right circumstances.
3/28/2004 4:39 PM


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It seems to me that this doesn't work as good in C3C as it used to in PTW. Or maybe its because I'm always playing Regent level or higher now, I dunno . . .

Anyway, good ideas Rabi!
3/29/2004 4:00 AM


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Dolf writes:
I think it could be effective under the right circumstances.


Surely you are right. For me the circumstance is mostly because I do not want to go to war. I know that some players do not like war at all (I am not one of them), but everybody who gives a shot at a cultural or a diplomatic victory has enough reason to avoid war.

In the samples I attach here, I played India and decided from the start I'd try not to go to war at all, just to try a peaceful approach once.

In this game, in a relatively late stage I discover a remote island/subcontinent inhabited by the until then unknown civilization of the english. The english are the exclusive owners of the spices luxury and left little space to settle on their land. However I manage to gain a small foothold (mitnachalim0) and start my expansion by settlement. The next picture (mitnachlim1) is 30 turns later, when Warwick has flipped and I am draining it. (I have already obtained a source of Spices.) It takes another 35 turns to settle more free land (mitnachalim2), but since I operate in the English core, I just push them aside, but have no additional flips. I close in on Newcastle, but after more than 50 turns it still hasn't flipped. I have reached espionage and keep a close track of the development of Newcastle and Cambridge and others. As soon as they are too close to finishing their first culture (Temple or Library) I sabotage it. This costs around 300 gold which I can easily finance. Right after one of those sabotages Cambridge flips (mitnachlim3) and at this point I win Diplomatically. It is interesting to note that England voted for India (me) in the UN.
3/29/2004 4:19 AM


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The core to core competition.

In the same game I find myself building next to the Persian captial Persepolis. At first I throw in a lot of culture, just to survive, but soon I begin to understand I can compete on the tiles in the Persian land and undermine the effectivity of its core.
Near_A_Capital4 is the first picture. This shows the situation at 10 BC. The outskirt city Pune seems to be too close to Persepolis to be safe. As a matter of fact, the same counts for the Japanese city Tokyo. At this point I do not give Tokyo a second thought, but in hindsight, the success is, that I close in on it with Dharamsala (Near_A_Capital5), make it flip to me and drain it (Near_A_Capital6). After which I build a new city (Leh), one tile north, closing in on Persepolis. (Near_A_Capital7). This is around 600 AD. I win the game at 1800 AD, by then, my territory has extended so far, that I could place yet another city (New Indus) on the Persian border, taking tiles from the Persian core city Pasargadea and grab a valuable tile with Rubber. (Near_A_Capital8)
3/31/2004 12:45 PM
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I like the ideal and will try to see if it works for me, I have been trying to get a dipomatic vitory for some time, having already got all other wins.
4/1/2004 11:01 AM


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It is interesting to note that England voted for India (me) in the UN.


Veeeerrrry Interesting R.

In my experience, the cultural flip thing seems to take FOREVER (30 to 50 turns I guess, as you indicate), but maybe I'm just being too impatient?

Have you ever managed to get one of the CORE cities of an AI to flip? i.e, a capital city, or the second or third city?

Thanks for the great thread!
4/1/2004 11:39 AM


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The Capital never flips. I think that is impossible. I have read of cites with FP flip, which is as shocking as can be.
Core cities.... I do not recall. I am on a Culture Monger test game though; I'll keep you posted
4/2/2004 6:50 PM


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Once playing PTW rules on Monarch setting as the Persians using the TETurkana with cities map, I managed to get one of the most eastern of Greek cities to flip.

The cultural advisor made quite a fuss about it, and used more superlative adjectives and adverbs to describe the event than I've ever encountered any other time.

I was winning that game just huge big time! It has to have been my best game ever.

I need to download the patch I needed to finsh that game . . .
4/3/2004 9:35 AM


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I still have not set out to win w/out using my military ... culture flips are great, but never been my 'battleplan' (non-battleplan).

I will have to try this sometime ... Just thinking about how to maximize my efforts ... first ---> Be the Babalonians ... their attributes make for cultural mayhem for the enemy, and to build the Temple of Artimedes ... unless when its about to be built there is little land left to settle, and many of the cities have temples.

I guess the Pyramids also makes for rapid expansion, but recently, all I can think about when building that wonder is how many settlers I could have produced instead of it! (10-12 in the city making it usually ... and thats a lot!)
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