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Designated Norwegian
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| -I'm going to tackle a topic in this thread that might offend greatly those who read it, however I do feel that it is necessary for me to say all this. The topic is religion, and I am not inclined to be be either respectful of it nor politically correct when discussing the matter. You've been warned.
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-Let me first be honest with you, I see religion as a malevolent force in society, divisive and destructive. I also see people who are religious to be, well there's no other way to put this; stupid. I will now tell you why I feel this way.
-There are multitudes of religions around the world and all profess to be the true religion, none of which are. The very notion of religion should be absurd in an enlightened society but for some reason people still cling to the notion that there's some all-powerful diety floating about in the sky dictating our lives, that reason escapes me. When several groups state that they follow the true path, all at the same time, the only thing that can come of it is division and destruction, it is evident for those of you who have studies but a little history. The events of 9/11 were not purported by someone with a skewed view of their religion, they were actually doing as their religion told them to do. Islam is not a religion of peace, no religion is ever peaceful. One could compare religion to ideological notions such as communism or nationalism but the difference between those and religion is that there is no moral justification to be found for destructive acts.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal
"I think that on the balance the moral influence of religion has been awful. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg
-When it comes to stupidity I do believe that if you came across someone preaching the gospel of Santa with complete conviction, believing fully that Santa was real, you would say to yourselves "Wow, he's stupid." Yes, I just compared whatever diety you follow to Santa. I cannot for the life of me fathom how one could be knowledgable of the world and human history, yet retain ones religion without embracing complete denial. Do you believe in Zeus? Do you believe in Odin(Wotan)? What difference is the between those two and whatever God you believe in? None. To know of the many dieties man has imagined throughout history and still view religion as faintly credible would to me be an unsurmountable task.
"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." -- Thomas Paine
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” -- Seneca
-Nothing good has ever come from religion since it's inception, it has held back progress, centuries of wisdom have been burned because they did not support a fictional diety, men have been persecuted for not believing in this fiction and murder on an industrial scale has been commited without repercussion in it's name. How anyone can find solace in such an abomination is unimaginable.
“After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands” -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -- Stephen Roberts
“There can be but little liberty on earth while men worship a tyrant in heaven.” -- Robert Green Ingersoll
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” -- Thomas Jefferson
-And I do not accept the notion that the inhumane actions taken in the name of god are merely attributed to the men who commanded it for they cannot say that god wills it if there is no religion.
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-I think that's it for now though I may extrapolate on it later on.
EDIT: Oh, and search for "Atheism" on youtube and you'll find many discussions on this topic. You might also want to check out Secular Web. |
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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) "The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness."
-- Joseph Conrad (1857-1924) With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
--Steven Weinberg(1933- )
       
Edited: 11/4/2006 4:37 PM by Roadkill |   |  |
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Lock n' Load!
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| -Let me first be honest with you, I see religion as a malevolent force in society, divisive and destructive. I also see people who are religious to be, well there's no other way to put this; stupid. I will now tell you why I feel this way.
The is fine with me, my friend. Live as you wish!  |
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"“Remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS.” - Mahatma Gandhi
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...' -Isaac Asimov
There is only one time when it is essential to awaken. That Time Is Now! - Buddha
"You have to get busy living or get busy dying" - Tim Robbins (in Shawshank Redemption)
"There are many things worth living for, there are a few things worth dying for, but there is nothing worth killing for."- Tom Robbins (not to be confused with Tim Robbins)
“operare non meno l’ongiegno che la forza” (Exercise intellect, as much as force) - Cosimo de Medici
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sweetP
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| | I have but a few things to say Rk: I agree that ORGANIZED religion is bad, for all of the above reasons. I contend, however, that there is nothing wrong with one's holding personal views on the existance of god(s). Call me stupid; I don't care, I'm called that at least five times a day in my house.  I remain, and will probably always remain, devout in my agnostic, hybrid religious-philosophical beliefs, and nothing you can say will cause me to change. Not because I am inflexible, or not willing to contemplate the fact that I might be mistaken in my views, but because there is no way to shed real proof against it's validity. Feel free to pick this apart as you will. I've argued on this subject with you before, and you'll have to say something quite extraordinary to draw in any farther.  |
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Emulator of Otto von Bismarck, Master of realpolitik, May he rest in peace.
But the liberals should be careful of screaming too loud ... of conspiring too well ... of undermining us too thoroughly. Because if they succeed, if they do get what they insist they want, then the result may well be something they never conceived ... "They have made a desolation, and they call it peace." ~Tacitus~ ... but a peace controlled by our former enemies.
--Tosk
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Culture-Monger
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Elite Pathogen
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| | Interesting. How many religious people do you know? How many times have you gone to a church for the purpose of gaining an understanding of it? Have you seriously looked into a religion other than to bash it? All the textbooks and quotes from philosophers in the world will not tell you why people believe in God. Emerse yourself into a religion and you will find people who live profound lives in addition to some stupid people. Nothing good has ever come from religion since it's inception, it has held back progress, centuries of wisdom have been burned because they did not support a fictional diety, men have been persecuted for not believing in this fiction and murder on an industrial scale has been commited without repercussion in it's name. How anyone can find solace in such an abomination is unimaginable. A truly ignorant statement. What would the world be like without the Sistine Chappel? Name one man made, non-religious comparison to it. The ethics we have today are a direct result of the Judeo-Christian tradition. I'm not arguing that they origionated there but they certainly kept those ideals alive for thousands of years which are the basis of our society. Yes men will use religion to gain power, justify murder, and all those things you mentioned above but if there was no religion, they would use another method to justify their horid deeds. Look at Stalin, the greatest butcher of his own people, arguably in history. What religion did he use to justify these acts? People will use any ideal to do evil things. You also forget to mention that many religions inspire people to do tremendous good. AA meetings, propose that you look to a higher power for help. Religious people (in America at least) strive to serve those who are less off than they. People find great strength when they gather with others of similar belief. The spiritual experiences I've had because of my religion have made me very much who I am today. I cannot deny them because they are very real. Look if you want to believe in your warped view of religion, feel free but it would be an outright shame if you go through your entire life without such experiences. I don't wish to argue about this since it is futile but don't look down on me because I wish to believe my life has more meaning to it than to procreate and advance my seed. |
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-A government that is powerful enough to do anything for us is powerful enough to do anything to us. -Fred Thompson
-There are two races of people, the decent and the indecent. - Victor Frankel
-They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. - Benjamin Franklin
Consequences
Edited: 11/4/2006 10:46 PM by jerm |  | |
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Lock n' Load!
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Designated Norwegian
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| I agree that ORGANIZED religion is bad, for all of the above reasons. I contend, however, that there is nothing wrong with one's holding personal views on the existance of god(s).
-I would say that any religion, no matter it's form, is bad because it gives credence to religion itself, organized or not. It is merely my opinion.
How many religious people do you know?
-What's this, another "My dad can beat your dad" arguement? I'd say I know a sufficient amount, of many faiths. Hindu, moslem, christian, even one buddhist(!). Now, Norway is 65-80% atheist, as are most other nordic countries.
How many times have you gone to a church for the purpose of gaining an understanding of it? Have you seriously looked into a religion other than to bash it?
-Have you done this? Now, I have studies many religions, from babylonian mythology to christian mythology, and if you do that you find that so much in the bible is nabbed from older religions(Baby Moses on the river, for instance). Now, it is not that I do not understand the religions, it's just that I understand them enough to know that they're not true, any of them.
A truly ignorant statement. What would the world be like without the Sistine Chappel?
-It would be very similar, we would just be missing a building . Now, what makes you think that without religion there would not be greater monuments, more(Or equally) beautiful pieces of art?
The ethics we have today are a direct result of the Judeo-Christian tradition. I'm not arguing that they origionated there but they certainly kept those ideals alive for thousands of years which are the basis of our society.
-No and no. Christian morals have changed dramatically throught the centuries and it is only deists and atheists who have forced that change. Thomas Paine who's writing fueled the American and French revolutions, Voltaire, Rousseau, Hume. Every time society has moved forward, religion has taken a step backward. Always has society been driven by skeptics, never by religion. The sole intent of religion is to subjugate the masses and that is so painfully obvious to those who study it.
Yes men will use religion to gain power, justify murder, and all those things you mentioned above but if there was no religion, they would use another method to justify their horid deeds. Look at Stalin, the greatest butcher of his own people, arguably in history. What religion did he use to justify these acts? People will use any ideal to do evil things.
-As I said, though ideology may very well be used to commit murder and such, the person will have no moral justification. That is what religion brings.
You also forget to mention that many religions inspire people to do tremendous good.
-Remember the tsunami? Well, Norway amounts to 7‰ of the world's population yet contributed 15% of the total private donations to aid the countries hit by the tsunami. Religion didn't inspire that, humanity did!
I don't wish to argue about this since it is futile but don't look down on me because I wish to believe my life has more meaning to it than to procreate and advance my seed.
-But it does. Procreation is the goal of your DNA, but you are a human. Do with your life as you see fit, you don't need some god in the skies to be good, that actually lessens your deeds. To follow the rules of a religion because you want to appease an omnipotent god who can send you to hell for eternity is not to be moral in my eyes, that requires it to be your choice, devoid of outside influence. And you wishing something to have meaning does not make it so.
Look if you want to believe in your warped view of religion, feel free but it would be an outright shame if you go through your entire life without such experiences.
-You do not know what experiences I have had. Do not take atheism as living in a cold, dry world. I might just see more beauty in the world I inhabit than you do, precisely for the reason that I know this life is the only one. I can stare at a cloud for a long time, or see how the light interacts with the mountain tops. My view of religion is not in any way warped, it is religion that has been warped for the last centuries to conform to truth, fact. If you want religion then you should live in the dark age because that is the inevitable result of religious dominance, just look at the middle east today.
-Nietzsche thought that religion came from childhood, where the child is exposed to this seemingly titanic figure that watches over it and keeps it safe, the father. When one becomes older that image must become greater and so an all-powerful god is projected onto the sky.
-Pascal(Not Blaise), an American philosopher who's first name escapes me, has studied religion on a world-wide basis and found that what links all religions together is the existence of spirits, not necessarily gods, merely benevolent or malevolent spirits. He argues that in the early evolution of man some superstition was necessary to keep one on his toes. To flee from nothing was infinitely better than not fleeing from a hungry predator and so spirits were sort of hardwired into the brain as it was a favourable trait.
EDIT: Johnathan Miller had some great programmes on atheism through history on BBC, these are quite intrigueing. You can also find many interviews and discussions on richarddawkins.net. |
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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) "The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness."
-- Joseph Conrad (1857-1924) With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
--Steven Weinberg(1933- )
Edited: 11/5/2006 4:22 AM by Roadkill | | | |
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