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Conscript Rabbi
      
Last Seen: Today @ 12:50 AM
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| Hi,
I am RabiAkiva, the newest mod on the block. I have made it as my goal to keep the P&R forum in hand and attempt to prevent the excesses we have had in the past that led to shutting down the forum for a while and maybe, unintentionally and undetected, lead to scaring away people from posting here.
It is my opinion that the means and power of the moderator are in fact not the best instrument for keeping this section of 1bc under control. Mod action like deleting posts and threads should be measures of last resort and once we get to that, we have actually already lost the case. The case being, that the P&R forum is viable to have around. So, way in advance of moderator intervention, we need other ways of signaling and adjusting the goings on in the region. So far, just like in other sections, we have depended upon the self-moderation and self-editing capacity of the posters. For other forums that may be enough, for this one it has proved (proven?) to be ineffective.
I think it can easily be explained why. First of all, Politics and Religion, by definition are more sensitive subjects, hence it is naturally more difficult for posters to show self-restraint and naturally for the readers more difficult not to be offended. So, in contrast with other forums, it is harder to write a post that is completely OK. Also in contrast with other forums, we have different rules of what is allowed. In other forums one is forbidden to bring in contentious subjects, whereas, exactly in this forum, the whole purpose is to discuss these. Consequently, our capacity to self-moderate is stretched even more; not only is it easier to tread over the line of what is inoffensive towards what is offensive, it takes much further to become outright abusive and collide with rules and call for mod action such as deleting posts and threads.
What does this all mean? It means exactly what we have seen with the various incarnations of this section: invariably it runs out of hand and needs to be shut down. So what can I do as a moderator? Well not much. Like said: when you come to moderating, you have actually long lost the case. What I would like to do is extend my activity such, that it is not just moderating, but also facilitating. I would like to see if I can, with your help, actually enhance the capacity of the posters to self-moderate.
I think I have sufficiently pointed out where the weak point lies. From an irritating post, one that plants the seed for the next row, until the outright abusive one, it is a wide stretch to go and along that path, there are no guidelines. At least, the site offers none, you are on your own, together with the emotional strains of your political and religious standpoints and the limits of your own insight in what is permissible, chic, acceptable, valid, normative, nice, right and true. However, a lot can be said about what should be the guidelines for posting.
For starters, Leo posted a few good ones in this thread, ' Leo’s rules for Posting'.
I want to invite you all, to post here your own rules for posting. Rules that you think you (should) apply to your own posts and you would appreciate if others were to respect when posting in threads that you post in as well. Thus, we will all have a reminder of what we set out to do and according to which code. Once a poster has claimed allegiance to a certain code within this thread, it will be much easier to keep him in line, according to the very same code in the next -- or so I hope. I suppose we could also draw examples from other threads and post them here to discuss, as a kind of preliminary or prevention to report the post.
I'll chip in some code of mine as well, but for one, I detest posts that are too long, so let's not start by breaking that rule of mine.
RULE: keep it short. Concise is best.
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-- Hypocrisy is sin's reverence to virtue -.-.-.-.-.- Anne is a Man! RabiAkiva's blog
Edited: 1/10/2007 2:52 AM by RabiAkiva |  |  |
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Hewhocannotbenamed
      
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Conscript Rabbi
      
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sweetP
Last Seen: 8/15/2008 10:45 PM
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| If you ask me, calling ideas communist is fine. Calling the person cummunist is not. Just because someone holds views that are common to communist ideology doesn't mean that someone is a wholesale communist by default. That plus, it's just less offensive in the first place if you label/insult the idea instead of the person.
As for my own personal rules, here is copied from Black's thread, stepping out on a limb.
One thing I would like to throw out there for those who may have trouble with keeping themselves civil (this works for me): type your post, then read your post over again before posting. Not only will this have the effect of reducing typos ( [Smile] ) but it will also give you a chance to revise the wording of what you're saying so that you come across more clearly, and to dull the blade so that one does not take what you're saying as a personal attack - Black made a point that misunderstanding each other when posting here is easy.
Also, if someone posts something that I consider to be either an attack or inflammatory, I don't add fuel to the fire. Seeing how easy it is to misread what someone is trying to say, a lot of disagreements could be avoided if we got the author of the remark to clarify what they mean. Often they don't mean quite what they said. I saw this first hand when I questioned Konrad about his belief in Jihad. Once I made it clear that i was only trying to figure out where he was coming from, his responses seemed much less confrontational.
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The first part echos DD. And so it should. I think that this is a very easy and effective solution. |
-- Emulator of Otto von Bismarck, Master of realpolitik, May he rest in peace.
But the liberals should be careful of screaming too loud ... of conspiring too well ... of undermining us too thoroughly. Because if they succeed, if they do get what they insist they want, then the result may well be something they never conceived ... "They have made a desolation, and they call it peace." ~Tacitus~ ... but a peace controlled by our former enemies. --Tosk
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Hewhocannotbenamed
      
Last Seen: Yesterday @ 3:49 PM
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| RabiAkiva (1/9/2007)
Great, DDMagnan! Rereading is wise in any case, but allow me to ask you a question. Would you consider sarcasm a personal attack? Or the use of pejorative language? Would you consider it a personal attack if you'd call somebody or his views 'communist' when they (in your eyes) quite obviously ARE communist, but you know, or at least could suspect, the poster wouldn't label in such a way? RAOn the web I find it best to avoid using sarcasm. IRL I love sarcasm and like to tease friends and family using it. However I find that it is hard to pull off on the web due to the lack of tone. Thus I very rarely use it. When I do use it, it is always of a joking manor and not as part of an argument or debate. Even then I will only do it if it can easily be identified as sarcasm and I know the target well enough to know that they will not be offended and realize I am teasing them. While I do not think sarcasm should be against the rules, I think people should use it with caution. It is also usually counterproductive in a friendly debate pejorative: having negative connotations; especially : tending to disparage or belittle If pejorative language is directed at a participent in the debate, then yes, by definition it is a personal attack and should be avoided. If it is directed towards the subject of the debate, a war, a religion, a country, a leader, etc... then I think it is acceptable. If hearing such language directed towards something they hold dear will cause someone extreme hurt or anger, than perhaps it is best that they avoid the P&R area. As a rule I try to avoid labeling someone during a debate or calling them a name, even one I think would not offend them. I may however let them know what I think of their views. I might say for example, "What you said sounds similar to Communism?" It may only be semantics, but the way you phrase things can make a big difference. I think "You must be a Communist to think that way." might seem like a personal attack to some and "What you said sounds similar to Communism?" is a valid point in a debate. This is why I often reread my post several times and make alot of grammer and phrasing changes. I also try to keep in mind that many posters to this board have English as a second language. So I avoid using idioms and phrases that may be easy to misinterpret as much as possible. My training and experience as an English teacher in Japan gives me an advantage there. Also the fact that my wife is not a native English speaker helps a lot as well. |
--
 "In our November issue we mistakenly labeled World in Conflict as ESRB rated M instead of T. Because apparently, it's ok to detonate a nuclear device in a major American city, as long as you don't see the blood of the countless innocent people you've killed until you turn 17." PC Gamer #169 Need help with your civ addiction (or just a good laugh). Go to civanon for help. "You won't stop playing until you WANT to stop playing."
Edited: 1/9/2007 3:39 PM by ddmagnan |  |  |
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Conscript Rabbi
      
Last Seen: Today @ 12:50 AM
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| psweetman1590 (1/9/2007) If you ask me, calling ideas communist is fine. Calling the person cummunist is not. Just because someone holds views that are common to communist ideology doesn't mean that someone is a wholesale communist by default. That plus, it's just less offensive in the first place if you label/insult the idea instead of the person.
[...]
Black made a point that misunderstanding each other when posting here is easy.
Also, if someone posts something that I consider to be either an attack or inflammatory, I don't add fuel to the fire. Seeing how easy it is to misread what someone is trying to say, a lot of disagreements could be avoided if we got the author of the remark to clarify what they mean. Often they don't mean quite what they said. I saw this first hand when I questioned Konrad about his belief in Jihad. Once I made it clear that i was only trying to figure out where he was coming from, his responses seemed much less confrontational.
[...]
Thank you Psweet, A couple of points to expand: 1- I agree it is less attacking to say something about a view rather than about the person who utters it. But considering the identification that goes on, wouldn't it be true that labeling a person is out and labeling his view cruising towards the same line? If so, unless the label is agreed upon by the person who takes the viewpoint, what actual use is the label? Could it be left out? Or at least be proposed as being similar. "I assume you do not think your views are communist, but it sure looks like that to me considering X, Y, Z"
2- Since you write cumunist... Do you think it is right to say something about someones spelling, grammar or way of expression otherwise?
3- Black made a point about misunderstanding. You make a point (and a very valid one IMHO) about asking a question, rather than rushing towards a remark. Would you say we are here in the business of trying to understand each other? And if so, that whatever procedures we propose, and hopefully agree upon, here, should be aimed at enhancing understanding? |
-- Hypocrisy is sin's reverence to virtue -.-.-.-.-.- Anne is a Man! RabiAkiva's blog |  |  |
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Elite Pathogen
      
Last Seen: Today @ 7:59 PM
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| | I think I agree with all that's been said. Here's my philosophy. Don't get offended no matter what, even if someone is trying to offend you. Whenever I start to get steamed over a subject, I'll type out a long post, read it over and not hit the "post reply" button. I'll come back when I've cooled off and I usually delete it or write something else. I find that when discussions get passionate, they get personal. When arguing it's important to stick to facts and reason and not passion and aggression. That's the difference between an arument and a fight (with words I mean) I think. Some pet peves of mine that bug me from other posters are when certain opinions are presented as facts or when a fact is presented (which is not well known; saying the earth is round wouldn't qualify for example) and no documentation (via a link or at least a source) is given. I try very hard to stick to this rule (though I'm sure I've broken it on occasion) and often I have had to just abandon a line of thought because I couldn't find anything to back it up with or something which I thought was damning evidence turns out to just be wishy washy at best. Stick to the subject. I realize we go on tangents and that's fine but don't derail an interesting thread. 2- Since you write cumunist... Do you think it is right to say something about someones spelling, grammar or way of expression otherwise? This particularly bugs me since it stops cold the discussion and I think actually puts the person on the spot when they don't necessarilly deserve it. It also attacks the intellegence of the person and puts it out in public. It's one thing if you're in school and your teacher does things like this but it's a totally different thing when you're having a discussion about a subject and someone jumps in and points out that you mispelled a word. It's like if you're watching a debate and one guy says to the other, "your zipper's down," on live T.V. If you're annoyed with someone's grammar or spelling, pm them. Don't make it a public spectacle. If you're joking around with someone though, that's different but I think in the P&R forum, it should just not be done. |
-- -A government that is powerful enough to do anything for us is powerful enough to do anything to us. -Fred Thompson
-There are two races of people, the decent and the indecent. - Victor Frankel
-They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. - Benjamin Franklin
Consequences
Edited: 1/9/2007 5:27 PM by jerm |  |  |
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First Lieutenant
      
Last Seen: 6/26/2008 6:46 PM
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