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Conscript Rabbi
      
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| Thank you all.
I detect a strong consensus with regards to the advice of rereading your post. This is to weed out ambiguous language, passionate statements and other seeds of contention. So, I would like you all to take this to heart and do so. There is however a slight problem I would like to point out.
Suppose the poster is a particularly self-righteous person. Whatever he has written he will still feel justified upon rereading. Whatever idioms he uses are his superior own, whatever offensive attacks are his just accusations, whatever attributions to others, are his objective interpretations. Such a person is not helped (maybe cannot be helped at all) with above advice. Mostly of course it is this posters total lack of self-critique, but I beg you to discern a certain weakness, an omission in the advice.
I'd like to characterize the advice as a recipe advice. I trust you all can cook my fennel soup if I were to give you the recipe, but if you have no understanding of cooking, you will not be able to appreciate the importance of various instructions, or the reason for them, let alone the overall coherence of the recipe. In other words, when given a recipe, one can still screw up for the simple reason that one doesn't really know what one is doing. Thus also with the advice of rereading the post. If you do not know what to look for, what defines a good one for a bad one, rereading is not going to help much.
Some of you give negative advice and the good of that is that at least it allows the one who rereads his post to recognize what is bad and needs to be left out. No sarcasm, no ambiguous language, no words directed to another poster personally, no reactions to attacks or provocations, no talk that originates from feeling offended. But what DOES have to be in?
I think Jerm words it very well: stick to facts and reason. Scipio adds: you must be accurate and you must write the truth.
The last indications point towards an ideal situation of course, we may not be able to actually achieve, but keeping a clear ideal in mind is definitely going to help. It also connects with the title I gave to this thread, because I think ideally we will exchange thoughts here and approach each other only on reason and on reason alone. No other element should come into play. No threats, no sarcasm, no humiliation, no labels, no voting (!), no verbosity, no snideness, no manipulation, no debating tricks, not even Science, the Law, God or some other Great Authority to back you up. Just you, the facts you can claim, the reasons you can come up with as accurate and as truthfully as you can put it.
Can we agree? If so, let's see if we can elaborate a bit more around those elements: fact, reason, accuracy and truth.
Keep up the good contributions and thanks again,
RabiAkiva
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-- Hypocrisy is sin's reverence to virtue -.-.-.-.-.- Anne is a Man! RabiAkiva's blog |  |  |
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Hewhocannotbenamed
      
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Radical
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Conscript Rabbi
      
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| ddmagnan (1/11/2007) To go along with the "facts only" advice, I forgot one of my other rules, which someone else has mentioned, is to back up any facts with a link. Stating things as fact, with no proof as such, does little good. I try to find as credible as a link as possible. Even several different sources if it think it is necessary.
A week has gone past and this piece of advice has gone unchallenged. May I assume that posters generally agree with that?
So let's make it a RULE: back up your facts with reliable links (sources)
Or shall I try to challenge it a bit? Just to see how we firm we stand.
1- Do we have to deliver sources for generally known facts? 2- What should a poster do if he can only back up a stated fact with a reliable source that is either not on line, or not in English? 3- What if a discussion is about a moral, ethical or otherwise normative issue, would you still have to support facts with sources? 4- What if a discussion is about a subjective issue (Your identity, my feelings, your impression, my belief etc), would you still have to support facts with sources? 5- What if two sides in a discussion are unevenly distributed with access to sources? (BTW, this question may be seen as a derivative of #2) Side A has all the links for all his facts readily at hand, consists of the majority of posters etc.; side B on the other hand has little time, hardly any internet access and has to face A in A's language, which is not the same as B's. (Example: an issue that is widely backed in Western public opinion and is backed also by all of the Anglo-phone posters, is discussed here with a single Chinese poster that holds an opposite view. The Chinese guy is alone, must post in English and has to deal with limited internet availability in China because of Government censorship.)
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-- Hypocrisy is sin's reverence to virtue -.-.-.-.-.- Anne is a Man! RabiAkiva's blog |  |  |
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First Lieutenant
      
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Elite Pathogen
      
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| | Well I don't believe every fact or discussion should have to contain links. I think when a statistic is thrown out there like 'half of all marriages end in divorce,' there should be some attempt to give some kind of proof which can be looked at and challenged otherwise we could end up with a "nuh uh," "uh huh" debate. It is also helpful to throw articles which give facts like if 'Ahmadinejad meets with Ortega' is mentioned, it's nice to see an article supporting this. Now in response to Rabi's questions: 1-Do we need to produce links for proof of the theory of gravity? No, that would get tedious and no one would want to post anything. If there is some challenge to that known fact, it would be helpful to provide a link if it's a valid part of the discussion but if it's a very tangential point, probably not. 2-I think this is acceptable for example if you have a book where you read something that you want to quote but it's not availiable online, you could probably give a link to the book on Amazon (or wherever) and directly quote from the book as long as you give credit to the source. If it's in another language, a link would also be appropriate as long as you made an attempt to at least give an overview. That said, it would probably not be a very effective debate tool as we'd have to take you at your word. 3 & 4-Only if you are giving facts to back up your moral belief. If you say, abortion is bad because millions of babies die a day, give some kind of validation of that. If you are arguing that abortion is evil regardless of how many lives are taken, no, I don't think you'd need a source on that since it's your opinion. 5-Not sure on that one. I often don't post because I just don't have time to look up my facts so some of my points just aren't made. Should it be a rule? Probably not. I will say, it is fine by me if someone says, "it is my opinion that..." and has no source to quote. What I have a problem is when people say, "it is a fact that..." and has no source to quote from. |
-- -A government that is powerful enough to do anything for us is powerful enough to do anything to us. -Fred Thompson
-There are two races of people, the decent and the indecent. - Victor Frankel
-They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. - Benjamin Franklin
Consequences
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First Lieutenant
      
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Grognard fantôme
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| | I think the key thing is that people are willing to acknowledge the basis on which they think something, and thus are open to having "their sources" discussed, or perhaps even disputed by another site member. If we all kept this in mind, we might be a bit more cautious about stating things as "facts" when they are just opinions. The issue of the nature of sources is not going to be closed up nicely with a single preemptive policy discussion. The world (particularly the political, religious, historical, and social world) are full of contrary views. Many things that large segments of humanity regard as "fact," other segments regard as hoaxes, fabrications, or outright lies, including: the Apollo moon landings; paleontology; historical geology; modern history; ancient history; in-between-age history; etc. If two people disagree because they come from different traditions, and are referring back to different "sources" (whether those sources are the gossip in their communities, what their elementary school teachers told them, or what they read in a book) the key thing is that the basis for their disagreeing should not be obscured by the nature of their discussion. In short, I think if we are all simply prepared to provide clarification of our "sources," that is about the best that can be hoped for. Opinions, beliefs, attitudes, convictions, faith, that sort of thing, never have, and never will be necessarily dependent on facts, so no need to whip the dead horse there. As long as people are willing to acknowledge where certain elements of what they say or express on here derive from these objectively uncorroboratable sources, again, fine too, best that can be hoped for. Unless of course Sean wants to restrict the nature of the discussions on the site to be more like a courtroom in which disputants can object, overrule, and dispute claims based on their subjectivity, or lack of objectivity. I doubt that that is the intent. But at least having a general intent that, any poster in P&R should be willing to acknowledge (or perhaps even be shown through analysis of their discourse) that what they claim is or is not objective/subjective is probably about the best that can be wished. |
-- "'The front' is wherever you stop running away. Get used to it. This is what modern warfare looks like." K T Cat |  |  |
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