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Elite Pathogen
      
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Elite Pathogen
      
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Conscript Rabbi
      
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| jerm (1/24/2007) Hmm, just realized I was still in the "On Reason Alone" thread. I've also just realized that there are two threads discussing similar things so I'm kind of at a loss here. I guess the question needs to be asked, is this purely a debate forum or should it include satire as well? If the former, the cartoons would surely be out of line in my opinion. If the latter, this seems like the most appropriate place one could post them. Worldly chatter leaves it open to people being offended whereas here there's the cushion of the "don't come here unless you don't plan on getting offended" thing. If P&R is only a debate forum, not a place for satire, it would seem that these kinds of things would not have a place at 1bc at all.
Thank you for a clear analysis. This is indeed the question: is there a place for satire in a debate? Are you suggesting there is not? Not at all?
I like to react to Scipio as well, but to the first statement, letting the Slavery excursion for what it is. Scipio, are you saying that you are not willing to debate Slavery? Or are you saying that your debate with Slavery would be different from a debate with an opinion you find rational and generally acceptable, even though you disagree with it? I am inclined to say that only the second exchange is truly a debate. The other is just a one sided affair in which the opposing reasons have no chance of being accepted. Now what about:If it can be empirically, with impartial and objective evidence, shown to me that the customs under discussion IMPROVE the lives of those involved, then I will accept them as beneficient and time-honored. But until that time, I retain my tentative conclusion based on the available evidence which I have been able to bring to bear to address the hypothesis that these are in fact time-honored customs of injustice, inhumanity, bias, and evil. Can this be a debate in the even sense? Or does this lean towards the one-sided affair such as with Slavery. If the latter, aren't you in fact saying that you are not willing to debate the position? |
-- Hypocrisy is sin's reverence to virtue -.-.-.-.-.-

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Conscript Rabbi
      
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| allow me to quote Locus in an attempt to have this discussion carried out in one place:
Locus Coeruleus (1/24/2007)
This may or not be relevant to the current discussion, but since this is not the first time the topic of free speech has come up, I will proceed to remind us of those oh-so important words once uttered by Sean himself. Tell you what -- you go put up a website and allow free speech. The first yahoo that comes along threatening to do something illegal and see how quick you can get into hot water.
Now that's not the *main* reason we have mods & admins, but that is one of the reasons. No website on earth allows for free speech. Even in DC you have to apply for a permit to express "free speech".
I will not back down from this stance. Communities that don't enforce limitations on behavior are communities that do not last -- I've seen it waaay too many times. From this discussoin: Badges for posting countI also have an inking that in the days of Kring (previous admin before mongoose) a lot of stuff that we've been seeing here, the pictures (not to single you out Black Owl  ), would not fly at all. But I realize that the Politics and Religion forum was set up since then to allow for these sorts of things and debates to come into being. While I may side with Cleo in that I tend to be a "culture-monger" I also do not see much harm in posting these pictures here (to single you out Black Owl!  ) if they can further contribute to the discussion. I believe that the same possibilities exist for the pictures to be bandied about and debated as for the text. |
-- Hypocrisy is sin's reverence to virtue -.-.-.-.-.-

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First Lieutenant
      
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Grognard fantôme
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| RabiAkiva (1/24/2007)
jerm (1/24/2007) I like to react to Scipio as well, but to the first statement, letting the Slavery excursion for what it is. Scipio, are you saying that you are not willing to debate Slavery? Or are you saying that your debate with Slavery would be different from a debate with an opinion you find rational and generally acceptable, even though you disagree with it? I am inclined to say that only the second exchange is truly a debate. The other is just a one sided affair in which the opposing reasons have no chance of being accepted. Now what about: [quote]If it can be empirically, with impartial and objective evidence, shown to me that the customs under discussion IMPROVE the lives of those involved, then I will accept them as beneficient and time-honored. But until that time, I retain my tentative conclusion based on the available evidence which I have been able to bring to bear to address the hypothesis that these are in fact time-honored customs of injustice, inhumanity, bias, and evil.Can this be a debate in the even sense? Or does this lean towards the one-sided affair such as with Slavery. If the latter, aren't you in fact saying that you are not willing to debate the position? I think WE [ADDIT] are confusing "taking a course of study," or having a friendly discussion, with "debating." In general, a debate is an exchange between rivals, the intent being to provide a level arena in which proponents of opposing ideas will have an opportunity to demonstrate the greater salience, accuracy, or validity of their position, i.e., to garner support for their position, and foment opposition for their opponents position. Debates are also (from an educational standpoint) a medium for mental-athletes to practice and hone their skills by engaging in discussions about imporant (but generally quite esoteric) topics with other mental athletes. The view of a "debate" that you seem to take is one of a consensual agreement-stating-session, else one of a mutual inform-and-englightenment network. While I'm not trying to generally condemn such cyber-interactions as being insipid or useless, I am simply saying that, there is a difference between a debate and a social exchange in which there is a lack of strong oppositional polarity in the views held by participants. The term "debate" is IMO better reserved from the more "confrontational" (even if only structurally so) sort of engagement in which there is a fundamental disagreement in the rhetorical position of one or more participants, and the purpose and trajectory of the exchange is a kind of competitive marshalling of support for their positions, and discreditation for the position of their opponents. I can agree with you that warm fuzzy social interactions are preferable. But when people act as proponents of ideas or social forms that I have concluded are harmful, I feel it is my duty as a global citizen to speak up and counter such ideas and social forms. Islamic customs about the disenfranchisement of women (e.g., moral imperatives to cover the face) are among these sorts of ideas and social customs to speak out in opposition to. If it is generally distressing or unpleasant for my fellow 1BC community members to witness such discourse, then perhaps they should simply not view those threads in which such discussions occur? Or, a more radical option, they could set their settings to "Ignore" various users, myself included. Or, if the ongoing debates are seen by the owners and moderators of the site to be simply too much for the community to bear, then I would propose this: Be an equal opportunity censor: Do not allow anyone to express anything about a topic with which someone else might strongly disagree, and feel a moral imperative to counter. Keep the entire site restricted to nice, friendly, un-disagreeable banter associated with the game, strategy, etc. I try to be a good scientist, meaning, I reach a conclusion based on as much objective evidence as I can marshal. Once I seem to have marshalled enough that the primary and secondary questions are addressed, I will allow the conclusions to inform the rest of my thinking, my ideology, my activism, my behavior, my social interactions. But I also try to always remain open to alternative, oppositional, or contrary new evidence, and to have the humility, calm, and adaptiveness to say in the face of new and contradictory evidence "the tentative conclusion I have been working from up till now seems to have been brought into question by new evidence, and to require reformulation, if not abandonment." In this sense, I will always be open to being "convinced" by an opponent in a debate, even a debate in which I feel strongly about my conclusions and the position I am arguing. Even in a debate about a topic like slavery, in which I feel quite firm in my conclusions and would argue quite strongly, I like to strive to the ideal that I COULD always be convinced to change my position if suitable contrary or clarifying evidence could be brought to bear. I have laid out above, the nature of the evidence I would need to alter my position against the burqua and niqqab, which I conclude are generally harmful. Scripture does not suffice in this respect; sociological, epidemiological, educational, demographic, medical, psychological sources of data with respect to contemporary populations is what I insist on as evidence, because that is what I have formulated my conclusions on at present. |
-- "'The front' is wherever you stop running away. Get used to it. This is what modern warfare looks like." K T Cat
Edited: 1/24/2007 11:38 AM by Scipio Africanus |  |  |
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Conscript Rabbi
      
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| Where have I said that you can not add humor?
I am in a way, indeed, not approaching this as a moderator. Normally a moderator would act when something has gone too far. What we have seen though is that WHEN something has gone too far, debates had been derailing way before. If we are not going to change the mode of moderation, the P&R forum is an accident waiting to happen. However, we did not wish to alter the rules. Consequently we remain left with a large gray area and I have taken the unconventional initiative in this thread to stimulate all of us to map out that gray area. Nobody has objected to that project as such.
If I am less than perfect as a moderator inside this project, I'd love to hear how I can improve. It is part of the very same deal.
Again, I apologize for having taken a post of yours as an example of something that may not fit a debating forum. In hindsight I should have approached that differently, but what is done is done. I admit I have uttered my own opinions and this is not as to anounce new rules, but as to ignite this thread, for it was not exactly as vivid as it should be. Unless people do object after all to the project of mapping out the grays. Let them speak. |
-- Hypocrisy is sin's reverence to virtue -.-.-.-.-.-

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Grognard fantôme
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| RabiAkiva (1/24/2007) Where have I said that you can not add humor?
I am in a way, indeed, not approaching this as a moderator. Normally a moderator would act when something has gone too far. What we have seen though is that WHEN something has gone too far, debates had been derailing way before. If we are not going to change the mode of moderation, the P&R forum is an accident waiting to happen. However, we did not wish to alter the rules. Consequently we remain left with a large gray area and I have taken the unconventional initiative in this thread to stimulate all of us to map out that gray area. Nobody has objected to that project as such.
If I am less than perfect as a mode |
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