Representative or Direct Democracy?
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Representative or Direct Democracy?Expand / Collapse
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3/11/2007 5:54 PM


Grognard fantôme

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It seems that the issue of how to vote for Senators is presenting a fairly onerous obstacle to the efficient execution of the DGame. As such, I'd like to present a referendum to the citizenry of the DGame (all 24 of us!). Here are the quotes from me and Maniacalmonkey that are salient to understanding the context for this referendum taken from the Organizing the Senate Thread

From me:

Can we take a couple small steps backward for just a second here?

I realize the Constitution is already written, but just the the sake of putting the idea out there: is it really necessary or "salutary" that there be a "Senate?"

So far we have 24 members in This DGame. Excluding the President and two Supreme Court Judges, the common citizenry amounts to 21 people. With five Senators that works out to be one Senator to represent each of 4.2 citizens!

Is this really necessary? Heck, Modern Switzerland with a population of 7.2 million people has a direct democracy! Is it really necessary that we have a representative branch when it might just be more efficient for there to be referendums that all citizens vote on?

For that matter, I'm a bit confused about exactly what actions the President can take independently, and the actual role that the Senators are intended to play in the execution of the in-game decisions.

I apologize if this are really stupid questions that would answer themselves through a bit more studying of the Constitution, etc., but this is my first DGame. I'm still a bit baffled by what it is all for

maniacalmonkey (3/11/2007)
Here's a few snippets from the Constitution:

From Maniacalmonkey:

[quote]The President must present a request to the Senate, and have it approved by simple majority of the Senate, if he wishes to:

- Found a new settlement.

- Disband an existing settlement.

- Adjust Civics.

- Engage in treaties with a foreign power.

- Engage in acts of war with a foreign power.

- Construct a Wonder.

- Use up a Great Person.




The Senate may, by vote of simple majority:

- Disband the office of the Presidency.

- Disband the Senate.

- Dismiss a Supreme Justiuce.

- Alter the Articles of Law.


The main argument for having representative government, rather than direct democracy, is to allow policy to be enacted over a period of time, rather than changing it according to the fad of the hour. Also, it puts the business of official decision-making in the hands of a few dedicated individuals, leaving the casual citizen free to slack at the sidelines and complain about dirty no-good politicians

This is a rather different discussion though. Please feel free to start a new thread on this if you want to discuss it further, but let's keep this one focused on figuring out the best way to elect a Senate.

Given the unnecessary complications, I'm not so certain that we even need a Senate with only 24 citizens--21 private citizens with the govt excluded. The beauty of Democracies is that they are malleable and adaptable to changing demands. The consitution on which the DGame was founded seemed perfectly fine until we started encountering this issue with voting, and this has raised a couple of more fundamental issues.

1. What is the more truly democratic form of government? One in which national policy is determined via intermediary representatives of the people, or via direct vote by the people?

2. All else being equal, and assuming that democratic principles are the primary goal, which is the "better" form of government? A direct or representative democracy?

I'm gonna suggest that, with only 24 citizens, there is no need for a Senate and given the mechanics of polls on this site, it would be easier, and a more democratic structure to simply dispense with representatives, and have every citizen in the Dgame have an opportunity to vote on the issues about which the President must seek Senatorial sanctioning.

The referendum quite simply: replace the word Senate with Electorate, and Senator(s) with Citizen(s) in the constitution.

If there is a concern about quoroms, a certain % of the population could be specified as being required to transact national policy making business, say for example five citizens.

Often times 50% is considered a quorum. But given that we are already limiting ourselves to only five Senators being consulted on issues of national policy making, we could make the quorum five citizens, which is effectively what we are doing by having a Senate of five.

ADDIT: except for the fact that Senators might feel more obliged to be on the site regularly to participate in national policymaking than are all 21 private citizens, having 21 "Citizen Senators" with a quorum of five is effectively (a) no different in terms of efficiency than running a Senate; (b) more efficient in terms of skipping the time and effort to run Senatorial races: and (c) more truly democratic in allowing every citizen equal opportuinty to vote in all questions of national policy making.

Direct participation in all voting issues would encourage citizens to particpate, thus overall increasing the probability that a true majority of the citizenry would influence policy, and suffering no more unrepresentativeness than the Senate itself would impose in the first place. Having Senators certainly is not going to encourage participation any more than would direct democracy.

If there are five people who are willing to commit to being Senators, and thus to be present with sufficient regularity to conduct national business, then it stands to reason that there will already be a sufficient number of citizens present most of the time to conduct national business as a direct democracy too.

So, here is how the section of the Constitution that MM quoted above would read:

The President must present a request to the Citizenry, and have it approved by simple majority of the voting Citizens (with a required quorum of five), if he wishes to:

- Found a new settlement.

- Disband an existing settlement.

- Adjust Civics.

- Engage in treaties with a foreign power.

- Engage in acts of war with a foreign power.

- Construct a Wonder.

- Use up a Great Person.



The Citizens may, by vote of simple majority:

- Disband the office of the Presidency.

- Disband the Senate.

- Dismiss a Supreme Justiuce.

- Alter the Articles of Law.

This next part I find a bit perplexing and even a bit contradictory, though forgive me if I am simply not understanding MM.


The main argument for having representative government, rather than direct democracy, is to allow policy to be enacted over a period of time, rather than changing it according to the fad of the hour.[/url]

Why are the Senators any less likely to be prone to "fads of the hour" than are the citizens from whom they are drawn? This seems to reflect a kind of elitism; Democracy is fine as long as it is only reserved for the qualified?

[quote] Also, it puts the business of official decision-making in the hands of a few dedicated individuals

Which seems to me to be fundamentally contradictory to the very idea of a democracy, i.e., that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. If the point of this being a Democracy is that every citizen has an equal say in the policy of the social entity in which he/she is a participant, why create unneccessary middle men? This can only promote cronyism, and partisanism such as the formation of so-called "political parties" and special interest groups.

leaving the casual citizen free to slack at the sidelines and complain about dirty no-good politicians

Why allow citizens to be slack? Why not impose a rule: he who does not AT LEAST log on to the site for a certain span of time (4 months?) will have his/her citizenship revoked? Obviously this would be a simple token "punishment," because such a revocation should never be irreversible, but at least it would provide a means to thin out the electorate when people stop wanting to participate. IIRC, in direct democracies like Switzerland one is required to either participate or explicitly abstain, and is subject to being fined if one breaches this requirement.

Is it not the duty of every free citizen in a democracy to his fellow citizens and to their common welfare to participate to his earnest best and on equal footing with all his fellows?

3/11/2007 6:30 PM


First Lieutenant

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I'm all for throwing congess out.  OOPS!  Wrong thread again.  Seriously tho, I think Scipio makes valid points here and it makes sense.  It has been said that things not need be so complicated for a game.  Even choosing names of houses seems to have it's problems.  A President would answer directly to the people, boy how I wish that were true!  You really couldn't call it a dictatorship because the people hold the power of the vote.  And since we are a mostly vocal group I don't see the Prez. misunderstanding, or getting away with anything.  I almost mentioned that the supreme court seemed to be enough, unless you had a council of sorts.  Much like tribes in the early days of a civilization when numbers were small.  Yes, I like that.  A wise chief, a council, and a couple of Shamans. (Supreme Court).

If we grow than we can grow into a representitive style of government.  And evolve into a Congressionally run style of Democracy.  Lets crawl first?  And be on with it.

ADDIT:  Glad your off the meds for your head cold Scipio.

3/11/2007 9:54 PM


Elite Pathogen

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I think it's a question of efficiency.  Having 5 people voting for an "issue" means there is less of a chance that it will go the "wrong" way.  There's also the issue of accountability.  When a mistake is made, that person can be voted out of office while a citizen is a citizen (unless caught cheating of course) and there's nothing to keep that person from voting the wrong way.  Also it is more transparent when the senate votes (assuming they use a yay, nay system instead of polls). 
3/11/2007 10:37 PM


General

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Wah? Maniacal has been thumping that piece of cowskin for three bloody moons and nobody ever gave it heed. Let's not start heeding it now that it's been approved...

And you have heard our neighbors' taunting talk of Celtic twins?
3/11/2007 11:04 PM


Grognard fantôme

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jerm (3/11/2007)
I think it's a question of efficiency.  Having 5 people voting for an "issue" means there is less of a chance that it will go the "wrong" way.  There's also the issue of accountability.  When a mistake is made, that person can be voted out of office while a citizen is a citizen (unless caught cheating of course) and there's nothing to keep that person from voting the wrong way.  Also it is more transparent when the senate votes (assuming they use a yay, nay system instead of polls). 

Well I can understand if there is a bigger concern with getting things moving along than with actually simulating a democracy.

But then why call it a "Democracy" Game? If founding documents are to be left sacrosanct and unamendable by the will of the people, if more confidence is to be placed in an oligarchy than in the people, why not call it a Republic Game, or an Oligarchy Game?

I don't wanna cause trouble cause I know you guys enjoy these things. But, I guess I just don't understand what these Democracy games are supposed to accomplish if they are not actually meant to be a simulation or test of running a civilization game through democratic enterprise. Believe me, I can shut my cake hole if pondering this stuff too deeply is clearly unfashionable; but I just cannot help but ask at least once: what is the point if not to simulate a democratic enterprise? How is anything less than a direct democracy a more thorough simulation of a democratic enterprise?

3/11/2007 11:37 PM


General

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I take issue not with your point but with your timing. The game has started as far as I'm concerned and we now have a Constitution. Perhaps you do not like it. In that case, I suggest you read it closely and find out how to go about changing it. This is not about you shutting your trap. This is about the Constitution having been approved after weeks and weeks and weeks of time for input, and hardly getting any. In my opinion, this type of metadiscussion has no place here anymore. If *you* want it changed, *you* undertake action. *You* work out the details. *You* try to drum up enough support. *You* lead us to true Democracy. Hell, I may even vote YEP.

ARTICLE V: LEGISLATURE

1. These Articles of Constitution shall be the supreme law of the Community; no other body of legislature shall supercede it.

2. To alter the Articles of Constitution, a majority vote of no less than two-thirds of the People shall be required to be in favor.

3. To ensure the proper execution of the Articles of Constitution, Articles of Law shall be established, to be adhered to by such parties as they concern.
3/12/2007 12:01 AM


Elite Pathogen

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In fairness, I think that is what Scipio is trying to do but I think he just wants to explore the issue as a first step.  Scipio, "Democracy Game" is kind of a generic term for these kinds of things.  There actually was an Oligarchy game, and in the last Dgame we actually experimented with a few systems including a feudalistic type of aproach.  The goal is to get a workable government which involves as many of the people in various aspects of the game while still allowing it to actually move forward at a decent pace (otherwise it just simply falls apart).  Still, I'm not sure it's such a bad idea but I think other things would also have to be changed in order to accomodate this.  For example, there would need to be ample time writen into the system in order for the people to review, debate, and then vote on presidential proposals.  There are unfortunately practicalities which must be taken into consideration though, otherwise the game stalls and it is like pulling a handcart through the mud to get it going again.  The more momentum the game has and the smoother the road, the more fun it is and hence more people will want to stick with the game. 
3/12/2007 12:10 AM


Day-Saver!

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In my opinion, this type of metadiscussion has no place here anymore.


There is always room for discussion, brotha. Jeeze, what are you, some kind of dictator? Discussion, isn't that what democracy is about??

I think Scip has a point. In the beginning when there isn't much going on, it might be quite more democratic, and still quite simple for the president to put forth a plan, have the people vote upon it and not there not be a need for a legislative body such as the senate, but as the game progresses and complexity develops, a need will also develop for a division of labour, and hence a need for something akin to a senate.