Stalin vs. Hitler
1BC Civ Forums
1BC Civ Forums
Home       Members    FAQ   Links
Welcome Guest ( Login | Register )
        


12345»»»

Stalin vs. Hitler Expand / Collapse
Author
Message
5/2/2008 9:03 AM


Veteran Warlord

Veteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran Warlord

Last Seen:
1/4/2009 7:49 PM


Posts: 237
Visits: 531

Ok, so this is more political then anything but why is uncle Joe, aka Joseph Stalin in the game and Adolf Hitler is not.  I would like to hear everyones opinion on this.  It is no secret that Stalin killed far more people then Hitler, if we are compairing the two on a sheer death count.  It seems to me they both have high historical and military importance, and yet only one of them is portraied in the game.  Why is that?

Stalin = 20 Million deaths
Hitler = 7 Million deaths

by most counts, but feel free to throw in your own arguments and debate

5/2/2008 9:33 AM


Sword of Doom...

Sword of Doom...

Last Seen:
Yesterday @ 9:54 PM


Posts: 2,375
Visits: 20,507

23 Million Russians perished during WWII between Germany's invasion and the conclusion of the war... Wouldn't this be added to Hitler's total?

Add to that 5.6 million Polish (3 million of which were Jewish) and millions of others scattered around WWII.

He systematically executed 6 millions jews for no other reason than that they were, in fact, jewish. The only reason that number wasn't much higher is that he didn't have time to kill more.

I'm not defending Stalins place in the game, but in a contest of evil, there is no doubt.

5/2/2008 9:47 AM
Banned

BannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBanned

Last Seen:
3/10/2010 4:40 PM


Posts: 3,372
Visits: 6,123

There's enough psychotics represented?
5/2/2008 9:58 AM


Queen

QueenQueenQueenQueenQueenQueenQueenQueen

Last Seen:
Yesterday @ 9:45 PM


Posts: 6,857
Visits: 11,133

mongoose201 (5/2/2008)
23 Million Russians perished during WWII between Germany's invasion and the conclusion of the war... Wouldn't this be added to Hitler's total?

Add to that5.6 million Polish (3 million of which were Jewish) and millions of others scattered around WWII.

He systematically executed 6 millions jews for no other reason than that they were, in fact, jewish. The only reason that number wasn't much higher is that he didn't have time to kill more.

I'm not defending Stalins place in the game, but in a contest of evil, there is no doubt.
Def with you here goose. Although, evil is evil regardless of how many people you have killed.
5/2/2008 10:01 AM


Impeached by a patch

Impeached by a patch

Last Seen:
Yesterday @ 10:14 AM


Posts: 2,208
Visits: 4,030

I think the main reason for not including Hitler is the way his own people regard him. Hitler has been declared evil by pretty much the entire world; and after the Germans lost the war, the propaganda machineries of the winning powers did a very good job of convincing the Germans that Hitler really was an ultimate evil, evil on a level which transcends the evilness of any other evil dictator. The Germans are still today suffering from a national trauma of epic proportions, which has caused a number of rather silly consequences (but I won't go into details on that, lest this thread be moved to P&R).

Considering that, would it be commercially wise for Firaxis to have included Hitler into the game as a German leader, considering the customer base that a first-world country of 80 million people constitutes? Especially when there are other historical German leaders that are suited well enough for the game. Bismarck and Frederick are both fathers of the German nation-state in their own way, and very successful too considering the long-term effects of their rules on their people. Hitler can lay claim to neither of those honours.

Stalin, on the other hand, is not even nearly so reviled by his people, as polls conducted in Russia show. Far from all view him as the evil genocidal dictator, a lot of people regard him well for industrializing and modernizing the USSR, leading it to victory in WW2, and generally taking it from a backward country to superpower status. Stalin is not only less hated, but also a lot more successful, and a lot more significant in the creation of what Russia is today.

No, it would simply be inappropriate to include hitler in the game; the proof is here and here
5/2/2008 10:22 AM
Banned

BannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBanned

Last Seen:
3/10/2010 4:40 PM


Posts: 3,372
Visits: 6,123

Stalin is also represented in "Command and Conquer-The First Decade", tho not so well.  He's in the "Bad Guy" role. 
5/2/2008 10:26 AM


Veteran Warlord

Veteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran WarlordVeteran Warlord

Last Seen:
1/4/2009 7:49 PM


Posts: 237
Visits: 531

I see the propaganda has continued to work well to this day... sad

and might I add the Jewish proaganda.  Erase my post if you must but the fact is that after WWII the Jews have made it a mission to make sure everyone looks at Hitler for his crimes, and because of that we have all forgoten that Stalin was just as horrible if not worse.  The winners write the history books.

5/2/2008 10:30 AM


Make my day

Make my day

Last Seen:
Today @ 5:41 AM


Posts: 3,257
Visits: 5,536

Although, evil is evil regardless of how many people you have killed.

I suppose I agree with you Cleo, but it is never clearcut. Most people agree Hitler was evil, and I suspect so was Stalin, but we sometimes get hung up on absolute numbers. What about percentages? King Charles I of Spain was indirectly responsible for the eradication of a whole people (the Aztecs) in the early 16th century. Is he generally perceived as evil? No. Is it more evil to exterminate 20 million souls, or 100% of a race, or an orphan child? Is it evil to kill the majority of the population of two Japanese cities to shorten a war?

All very subjective and debateable and something, really, for P&R but it does suggest to me that "evilness" as such should not be measure of whether a historical figure should be included in a game or not. Whatever else you may think, Hitler was an extremely important historical figure and it could be argued he has a place in the game. After all, no one would be forced to play as him, would they?

5/2/2008 10:47 AM
Banned

BannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBannedBanned

Last Seen:
3/10/2010 4:40 PM


Posts: 3,372
Visits: 6,123

I really don't know.  But having kids role playing Hitler bothers me.
5/2/2008 11:10 AM


EVERYBODY PANIC!!!

EVERYBODY PANIC!!!

Last Seen:
Yesterday @ 7:11 PM


Posts: 5,630
Visits: 7,008

Here's the difference in my opinion. Neo-nazism is out there still. Its all over Europe in tiny pockets and in many locations. Its even in the U.S. in some areas. People still idolize the man. People commit acts on his birthday and the day before (Timothy McVeigh - Oklahoma City Bombing), etc. This stuff is something that is a small minority of the population, but the rest of the population doesn't view this minority with any decent regards, so.... don't encourage your kids to play as Hitler.

I'm sure if there were Neo-Stalins running around with a decent following in the world, they wouldn't have chosen Stalin for the game.

Yeah, it is a tad political for the game, but luckily for them, there are only 2 leaders for each civ, so they could just pick another decent leader and call it good. No biggie.
« Prev Topic | Next Topic »

12345»»»

Reading This Topic Expand / Collapse
Active Users: 1 (1 guest, 0 members, 0 anonymous members)
No members currently viewing this topic.
Forum Moderators: Sean, Zone, Winner, maniacalmonkey, Comedy Dave, cleopatra143, RabiAkiva, mongoose201

Permissions Expand / Collapse

All times are GMT -5:00, Time now is 12:05pm


Execution: 0.063. 9 queries. Compression Disabled.
© 2005 Take-Two Interactive Software and its subsidiaries. All rights reserved. Sid Meier's Civilization IV, Civ, Civilization, 2K Games, the 2K Games logo, and Take-Two Interactive Software are all trademarks and/or registered trademarks of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. Developed by Firaxis Games. Firaxis Games and the Firaxis Games logo are a registered trademark of Firaxis Games, Inc.

web stats