Stalin vs. Hitler
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Stalin vs. Hitler Expand / Collapse
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5/2/2008 12:03 PM


Veteran Warlord

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Nuclearcow (5/2/2008)
Here's the difference in my opinion. Neo-nazism is out there still. Its all over Europe in tiny pockets and in many locations. Its even in the U.S. in some areas. People still idolize the man. People commit acts on his birthday and the day before (Timothy McVeigh - Oklahoma City Bombing), etc. This stuff is something that is a small minority of the population, but the rest of the population doesn't view this minority with any decent regards, so.... don't encourage your kids to play as Hitler.

I'm sure if there were Neo-Stalins running around with a decent following in the world, they wouldn't have chosen Stalin for the game.

Yeah, it is a tad political for the game, but luckily for them, there are only 2 leaders for each civ, so they could just pick another decent leader and call it good. No biggie.

Every single Fascist on earth is a Neo-Stalin and his totalitarianism is used as THE model for a totalitarian govt, so Im not sure your really looking at what Stalin did and how he did it.

 

5/2/2008 2:35 PM


Elite Pathogen

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Hitler was evil and a complete failure.  Stalin was evil yet had very significant successes and influence on his nation (good or bad).  Hitler certainly was an influential leader, but a failure nonetheless.  This alone should disqualify him from the game.  The other difference is that Hitler sought to destroy a people soley on the basis of their ethnicity.  It wasn't even a smart strategic move.  Stalin killed to consolidate power and make sure no one else did, as well as to create an atmosphere of fear to limit dissidents.  It's evil in and of itself but you gotta admit it's not quite the same as exterminating an entire race/ethnicity as an end in and of itself.  The real reason he was not was because there is no doubt it would affect sales negatively. 
5/2/2008 2:51 PM


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The real reason he was not was because there is no doubt it would affect sales negatively.

I mulled that over and I think you're right. For lots of reasons.

5/3/2008 12:44 AM


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Every single Fascist on earth is a Neo-Stalin and his totalitarianism is used as THE model for a totalitarian govt, so Im not sure your really looking at what Stalin did and how he did it.
I think you missed my point, Mr. Khan. You may be totally right that Stalin was the father of totalitarianism as we know it today.

My point was that I have never seen any groups today go around being thugs and honoring Stalin. I have seen skinheads, swastikas, and various neo-nazi stuff on the news and maybe a few individuals in person over my lifetime. Even in remote Idaho, USA. Just saw an article on some US senator speaking with neo-Nazis and was photographed in front of a picture of Hitler and surrounded by swastikas. (I guess he said he'd speak to any group that would have him as a speaker, and they tested him on that offer)

I have never heard anything even remotely like that with Stalin as far as modern followers. If so, civ probably would have someone else in there as a leader in place of Stalin. It is political, and it has to be so they can sell as many games as possible.

Interesting discussion on this.
5/3/2008 2:01 AM


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Nuclearcow (5/3/2008)
[quote]I have never heard anything even remotely like that with Stalin as far as modern followers. If so, civ probably would have someone else in there as a leader in place of Stalin. It is political, and it has to be so they can sell as many games as possible.

Interesting discussion on this.

Stalin is undergoing an upsurge in popularity and positive image in Russia today. There was a one-page article on it in the Economist about a year or so ago, with a title "The Re-Writing of History."

5/3/2008 3:44 AM


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Black Owl (5/2/2008)
There's enough psychotics represented?

Yep - the AI is demented, regardless of the leaderhead...

5/3/2008 10:44 AM


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Stalin is undergoing an upsurge in popularity and positive image in Russia today. There was a one-page article on it in the Economist about a year or so ago, with a title "The Re-Writing of History."
I did not know that. Interesting.

Also interesting is the iconic nature of some of the old Soviet stuff to those guys. Quite a change.

About than a decade ago, the US Army was sending me somewhere in the ex-Soviet Union and as part of my intel briefing/training, they told my company that if any of us knew Russian, not to speak it there (if we were having difficulty communicating) because it was greatly offensive to many there to have Russian spoken to them. They made an analogy of it being the language of their oppressors. Someone on 1BC recently mentioned the iconic nature of the hammer and sickle and other old Soviet symbols now. Funny how things turn out.
5/3/2008 8:45 PM


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I guess that would have been me. Except that (in Finland), the Hammer and Sickle (as well as other things symbolic of the USSR) aren't seen as a political symbol anymore; but rather a cool, trendy thing, an expression of romantic nostalgia.
5/3/2008 10:56 PM
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AHHHHHHH.....for the "good ole days" of the cold war.  Romantic Nostalgia, hmmm, then you don't remember the Nuke attack drills.  Or all the small lands the US and USSR fought each other in proxy wars.  Or the general underlying fear in everyday life that a blinding flash could come at anytime.  I find that a lot in generations not able to remember the fear of Cold War days gone by. 

I tried about a month or so ago to have Stalin added to the "Worst Leader" poll.  I was shot down in flames.  So I'm agreeing.  Can't have Hitler for sure.  But, by the same reasoning Stalin should be out to.  As in Germany's Leaders, so to Russia.

5/5/2008 2:09 PM


Elite Pathogen

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I don't know Black Owl.  How many people died (percentage wise) under Genghis Khan?  What about Alexander?  Perhaps Stalin is questionable only because of how recent he was.  Stalin certainly had a heavy influence on Russia for years to come.  Hitler's influence was only in the response to him.  Germany did change but only in a negative reaction to Hitler.  Had he negotiated peace, keeping all the land he had acquired, I think he could reasonably be included in Civ. 

I was thinking more about why Hitler should be considered to be "more evil" than Stalin and it was the manner in which he killed his own people.  Firstly, it was purely ethnic, which I have already mentioned.  There is a case that Stalin starved the Ukrainians and then enforced it in that anyone stealing food would be shot.  That's just plain evil but let's remember, at its height, Auschwitz was gassing and then incinerating 12,000 Jews per day!  It was the industrialized manner in which the Nazis exterminated the jewish populations of the lands they conqured that puts Hitler over the top.  Stalin just doesn't compare.

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