Stalin vs. Hitler
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5/5/2008 3:20 PM


Veteran Warlord

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Black Owl (5/3/2008)
AHHHHHHH.....for the "good ole days" of the cold war.  Romantic Nostalgia, hmmm, then you don't remember the Nuke attack drills.  Or all the small lands the US and USSR fought each other in proxy wars.  Or the general underlying fear in everyday life that a blinding flash could come at anytime.  I find that a lot in generations not able to remember the fear of Cold War days gone by. 

I tried about a month or so ago to have Stalin added to the "Worst Leader" poll.  I was shot down in flames.  So I'm agreeing.  Can't have Hitler for sure.  But, by the same reasoning Stalin should be out to.  As in Germany's Leaders, so to Russia.

Thank you Owl, this is the point I wanted to make and if only one of you can see the same way, I am happy that you at least know the real story.

5/5/2008 7:33 PM


WE WILL DESTROY YOU

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Hitler and Stalin were a bunch of pussycats!!!!
5/6/2008 12:47 AM


Impeached by a patch

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Well, if both Stalin and Hitler are inappropriate, then so is Genghis Khan. The Mongol Conquests killed some 100 million people, almost all of them civilians. Adjust that for total world population at the time, and he's in a league entirely of his own.

As for why Stalin and Genghis but not Hitler, there's nothing more profound behind it than a simple commercial decision. I persist in my opinion that the two current German leaders are more appropriate than Hitler, but if a third was to be included, I can't think of anyone off-hand who would fit better than Hitler. Even if he failed to have any long-term legacy beyond things that are essentially anti-him, let's face it, he has the greatest demagogue of the 20th century.
5/6/2008 4:47 AM


Udder madness

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Well, if both Stalin and Hitler are inappropriate, then so is Genghis Khan.
Ah yes, I forgot about all the neo-Khans out there. (get it? har har)

In all seriousness, kids don't idolize Genghis, grow up and join cults/gangs/etc like with Hitler. If a parent walked in on his kid playing Genghis, he probably wouldn't think twice about it.
5/6/2008 6:45 AM


...

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If a parent walked in on his kid playing Genghis, he probably wouldn't think twice about it.

Speak for yourself! If I found my daughter dressed up as Genghis and ritually eviscerating one of her friends I would probably think more than just twice about it

5/6/2008 11:21 AM


Elite Pathogen

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He he, that image made me laugh

Konrad, you are of course correct (but hey, I said Khan first ).  The decision is purely commercial in the end.  I guess the point is, why is Hitler so despised that it would hurt commercial sales while Stalin is not?  For some reason the systematic, industrialized methods of genocide seem far more despicable than what Stalin did, even if he killed more people on paper.  I suspect far more people know about Hitler's evils than Stalin's as well.  No doubt the USSR had to be represented as "Russia" as well and who better to portray it than Uncle Joe?  Lenin?  Kruschev?  Birth mark guy ?  Nazi Germany was a relatively short time frame and I'm not so sure it "had" to be represented as much as the USSR, but that's bordering on opinion .

5/6/2008 2:58 PM


Veteran Warlord

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Its interesting because you guys started talking about me directly...

As for the 3 leaders in question, I think that from a historical perspective they are all very important figures.  They did some good things, and a lot of horrible things.  There is no true gradient for evil, it is subjective and based on variants of morality.  But they are all very important historically, I dont think there is any argument there.

The point about Hitler and his particular breed of hate being used today as a symbol of martyrdom or as a symbol of the Nazi/Skinhead manifesto is well taken.  It unfortunately is somewhat of a symptom of the Jewish propaganda machine creating Hitler to be more then he was.  Let us not forget his very loyal and able cohorts who not only supported Hitler, but added to his message and feed into it.  By creating the image of the Nazi leader as root of all evil, they have given those who would continue to hate, an icon to idolize and worship.

In the end, Hitler and Stalin were men who exploited and destroyed their own people for their own hunger for power.  Many think Hitler used his rhetoric to create hate, however the more reasonable explanation is that he simply taped into an emotion  that was already abundant in Germany at that time.  Stalin did everything for the good of of Nationalism and yet, somehow that included starving his own people and silencing any who might question his absolute rule, namely those who were well educated.

Khan is different for the fact that he united his own people and gave everyone a choice.  Join me, or die, also creating a code of laws(Yasa) that was enforced by the military often through violence.  For example, if you stole a horse, you could repay with 7 horses, or you were executed.  Khan himself is more of a historical enigma for the fact that he did give people a chance to live, where as the foes of Stalin and Hitler had no choice at all.

5/6/2008 4:09 PM


Elite Pathogen

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It unfortunately is somewhat of a symptom of the Jewish propaganda machine creating Hitler to be more then he was.  Let us not forget his very loyal and able cohorts who not only supported Hitler, but added to his message and feed into it.

Let's be careful not to blame the victims here.  I hope you are not implying that Hitler's regime did not exterminate 6 million jews.  Just because he wasn't the one turning on the gas chambers, does not mean he was not responsible for them.  Don't get me wrong, Himmler and Eichmann, among others, were evil too but they weren't the top man.  The buck stops at the top.  If there's a scale of evil, Hitler gets a 10 while Stalin gets a 9.5. 

They did some good things

Other than the autobaun and the Volzwagen beetle, what good thing did Hitler do?

5/6/2008 4:47 PM


Queen

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IN 300 years no one will care about what Hitler did and he will be included in Civ10.
5/6/2008 4:49 PM
Banned

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UGH.....that'll mean twenty more computers and operating systems to keep up!  I'll just borrow NORADS, or IRS's.

ADDIT: Think of all the wasted nights downloading the patches, not too mention the bazillion hours actually playing CivX.  Ahem......looking for CivXXX by the way.  I'll stick around fer that one!

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