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5/10/2008 5:05 PM


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Nuclearcow (5/10/2008)
Why do you want to build the pyramides when you're playing a financial civ?
Why wouldn't you? What is better early on?

If nothing else, those 3 extra smiley faces alone is a decent reason.


I think the rationale is, there are (widely speaking) two opposite research strategies: Commerce-based and specialist-based. The former is to build cottages and channel the money into research via the slider. The latter is to get Representation (usually very early via the Pyramids), and use specialists (usually scientists) to drive your research.

Specialist economy is powerful early on. Six beakers per scientist is quite impressive in the early game when cottages wouldn't have had the time to grow properly yet, and you'll get GPPs too.

In my opinion, the Pyramids aren't used optimally unless one goes all the way with the specialist economy. It's doubtful if the smiley faces are worth the huge cost of the Pyramids; there are other uses for those hammers which would have kept the people happy and smiling. And if you had gone for the specialist economy, you had wasted the Financial trait of Darius.
5/10/2008 6:13 PM


EVERYBODY PANIC!!!

EVERYBODY PANIC!!!

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In almost every game, I go for the pyramids. If you had 30 turns (Epic or marathon setting) to complete Engineering, for example... it will often drop to about 24 just just by switching to Representation. Thats with emphasizing production and not emphasizing great people. Also, if you have 3 more happy faces on your 5 largest cities (I think thats right off the top of my head) thats potentially 3 more hamlets bringing in say... 5 gold per tile avg. with a financial civ. With 3 happy faces, thats 15 gold towards science. Multiplied by x5 cities and you're cranking out some science just by having those extra smiley faces alone. Combine that with any specialists you have from wonders, great generals, etc and without emphasizing great people, you're suddenly rocking in science.

But I guess since we lost, that strategy must suck. (Jabbing in jest towards the jovial Tones )
5/10/2008 6:29 PM


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Well, I didn't contest that 3 happy faces are good to have. The question is one of opportunity cost: What else could you have had for the hammers used on the Pyramids? A whole lot of immortals, for example, perhaps even early destruction of Japan.
5/10/2008 10:32 PM


Elite Pathogen

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I've been thinking about the whole Japan thing.  Not that it's an excuse for losing but from my experience, Japan is impossible to get early OB with while Korea was a piece of cake.  Apparently also, Japan had access to iron which made it harder for them to take them out as easilly as we did.  It changed their strategy, or rather, it made our strategies, vis a vis our neighbors different.  Early Korean conquest was slightly opportunistic.  Sure we let them live a while longer but when they started expanding again (and trying to grab copper) we finished them off.  Now, given the fact that they had the financial trait and should have cottaged everything, this should have made up for that but it's still noteworthy. 
5/11/2008 5:31 AM


Make my day

Make my day

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Jovial tones!? I am Anarcho, Dictator of Death, feared by all, etc., etc.

Konrad's points are valid. I don't think there is any question that Alpha did not make the best use of the Pyramids. They really should have got ahead of us in tech and didn't. It is easy to look back in hindsight and say well perhaps a load more immortals would have been better, but their information was sketchy and it probably seemed like a good idea at the time to build a Wonder which, if properly used, can win you the game. ANY game.

jerm also makes some good points regarding Japan and I mentioned in a different thread that we were lucky not to get Japan as a neighbour, but then you adjust your strategy to suit, do you not? There was a lot of BTS information sloshing around in the collective heads of the Omegans which is always a help. We knew, for instance, that we wanted to kill the Koreans before they got their rocket-powered cats. That comes from a deep (and rather sad ) knowledge of nearly every UU in the game.

That knowledge has now increased, and I now know that the Immortal is rubbish

Asking myself the question what would WE have done had Japan actually been our neighbour - difficult to say without the benefit of team input, but I would have argued for a full switch to military buildup (forgetting Wonders and such luxuries) and an invasion ASAP. I think you guys waited too long building up an army of what, 15 immortals? Attack sooner, not later.

5/12/2008 12:36 AM


Elite Pathogen

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Yeah, the financial trait should have made up for having Japan as a neighbor but it wasn't utilized properly.  In a game I'm playing at the moment, I got hemmed in with only 3 cities (small map but one civ got killed by a barb rush early on and left room for some rivals to grow) yet I was able to keep up in tech because I'm Korea (Financial Civ) and I'd cottaged the hell out of the land (and purely because of what I've learned from Alpha BTW).  I've now captured several cities and can compete with the leader... anyways, you guys weren't hemmed in and should have been ahead of us in tech by the time we met. 

Good points about spending hammers on immortals rather than Pyramids.  Everyone knows Japan sucks as a neighbor so illiminating him (especially with an early UU) should have been first priority. 

Okay, probably beating a dead horse here (but I didn't get to nuke ) so I think the points have been taken, especially since Alpha isn't really arguing here

5/12/2008 12:47 AM


Elite Pathogen

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Actually one more thing .  When the gap between our scores began to widen, all energy should have been focussed on keeping the gap smaller.  It should have been obvious by our score that we were conquring our neighbors which should have kicked you into gear even before we met.  Every hundred points difference becomes harder and harder to close.  Okay, I think it's Alpha's turn to talk .
5/12/2008 12:57 AM


Elite Pathogen

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Oh yeah, in response to Tones again, my main point was the metals had by Japan and none had by Korea... or Portugal for that matter!  We could not have destroyed Portugal so efficiently if they had metal troops.  Longbows were the hardest thing to overcome with zero chance of retaliation.  I doubt that we'd have gotten rid of both Korea and Portugal before as swiftly and I'm sure Alpha would have had a chance to tech gift in time to make it even harder.  I'm not saying we'd have lost but perhaps it would have been a slightly tighter game.  Add better use of Financial and better communication on their part and we'd probably be still playing an anybody's game!  Mind you those are the two biggest issues they had so what factor the Japanese metals had, I don't know. 
5/12/2008 12:55 PM


Wrong

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the metals had by Japan and none had by Korea...
Didn't Korea have a metal right next to their cap? They just didn't research BW early enough to hook it up...

The Pyramids are monstrously expensive. It is a pleasure to *not* build it, like it is a pleasure to *not* found a religion. These are habits of prince maybe monarch play that won't work very well beyond that.
5/12/2008 1:26 PM


Elite Pathogen

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An early screeny:

There was some copper nearby but it was close enough to us so we made sure Korea wouldn't grab it. 

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