NOT To Black Owl (anymore)
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5/21/2008 11:33 AM
lame duck

lame ducklame ducklame ducklame ducklame ducklame ducklame ducklame duck

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Saladin came, Ali will come, etc & so on. Its all in the beliefs my man.
5/21/2008 11:47 AM


Udderly ridiculous

Udderly ridiculous

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Roadkill, what are those picture of?
5/21/2008 11:58 AM


LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!

LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!LUNATIC ATHEIST!!11!!!

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Nuclearcow (5/21/2008)
Roadkill, what are those picture of?


-Anwar Sadat and his assassination.
5/21/2008 12:08 PM


Elite Pathogen

Elite PathogenElite PathogenElite PathogenElite PathogenElite PathogenElite PathogenElite PathogenElite Pathogen

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Yeah, NC, I thought that was rather obvious myself.
5/21/2008 1:11 PM


Impeached by a patch

Impeached by a patch

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Nuclearcow (5/21/2008)
Irrational?

I have to poke my 2 cents in here. Hasn't this been attempted, and isn't this still talked about today by Israel's neighbors? Death to Israel and wipe them off the map and all that jazz? This is the 21st century and "modern" Iran is still vocally championing what many are thinking in those regards.

Why are so many nations over there hesitant to even say that Israel has the right to exist?

Hardly "irrational" when they have neighbors who have tried it and neighbors down the street still talking about trying it again.


It hasn't been attempted since 1973, and the world has changed significantly since that. Egypt, which used to be the standard bearer of Pan-Arab attempts at destroying Israel, has too much to lose to risk doing it again: The Sinai Peninsula (which is of immense economic value due to tourism and natural resources), and US foreign aid. Neither does it have the teeth to do it, no longer being militarily sponsored by the USSR. Jordan and Israel are at peace, and with Israel having out-grown Jordan both in population and development, there is very little Jordan would be capable of doing. Only Syria remains with political will to destroy Israel, but they can hardly do much on their own; they too lost their teeth when the USSR ceased to exist and its military aid ended. Israel has never been as secure as it is today.
5/21/2008 1:34 PM


Grognard fantôme

Grognard fantôme

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Israel has never been as secure as it is today.

Which makes the continued efforts by the PLO and other anti-Zionist elements to maintain an influence the whole process all the more ironic. They are literally in a no win situation, as Rabi pointed out above. The only real solution is peace, not blaming, not vindication, not restitutions, nor reparations, just peace.

In the long run, the goal is what the peace activists folks call "Positive peace" which is when enmity between two peoples stops, and they basically perceive one another as fellow humans first and foremost. A good example of that is French and Germans today; not all, but perhaps most, or at least most in the border region. I understand there is still alot of smoldering resentment toward the descendants of Nazi collaborators in some villages and areas where collaborators were integral to the resistance being pretty brutally suppressed.

At the other end of the continuum is Total War: by definition (on average) two individuals of the rival groups perceive one another as unavoidable enemies. An example of that would have been French and Germans during the war.

Somewhere between Total War and Positive Peace are a few other milestones on the continuum of collective violence and peace: Limited War, Cold War, Terrorism, and "Negative Peace" which is the point where enmity remains high, but violence has become rare if not non-existent. Negative Peace exists in many places around the world, Yugoslavia and Cyprus come to mind.

It is an interesting question of human psychosocial dynamics what factors contribute to versus retard progress from Limited War to Negative Peace to Positive Peace. I would love to read an historically and theoretically rich examination of this topic based on actual empirical observations.

But having read quite a bit of history, and in particular military history, I have a tentative conclusion about what factors are salient to retarding progress from War to Peace: retention of an In-Group vs Out-Group mentality for one. I see both Palestinians and Israelis being widely guilty of this. For another, reference to events and ideas that are highly remote in time and space, e.g., historical wrongs. No body can change history, and if someone demands that you do, what options do you have? Lastly, a sense of hope/pride/confidence/duty to carry on the fight.

Now, my speculative observations of what contributes to progress from War to Peace? While it might be nice to think that some kind of warm fuzzy "we are all one big family" stuff would solve conflicts, I see very little if any real proof that it has ever actually done so.  Also, while getting people to let bygones be bygones and "drop it" might seem to be a fairly reasonable way to get a large fraction of a population to disapprove of continued conflict, the fact is that, it takes only a very small fraction of a population to act as rabble-rousers to keep sentiments of enmity and vindication alive in any human social group. We are by design very sensitive to social cheaters and ideologues and propagandists are implicitly aware of how this part of the human psyche operates. In a globalized world of telecommunications, the opportunities for the rabble rousers to keep the flames of vengeance burning in just enough hearts to keep the conflict moving along is much exacerbated.

Every conflict in history of which I am aware which has progressed from War to Negative Peace and thence in some cases to Positive Peace, has been accomplished not by brokering resolution, reconciliation, and renewal, but by crushing hope/pride/confidence/duty to carry on the fight. I hate to admit it, but that is where I stand. Sure, I'd love to imagine that we can all just get along. But until group X which, for matters of over-determined socio-cultural context, bears a grudge against group Y, has either defeated group Y or been defeated by group Y, I see little empirical hope of that the grudge will just fade out.

5/21/2008 3:26 PM


Impeached by a patch

Impeached by a patch

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jerm (5/21/2008)

From what I understand of the situation, this is a very biassed and black and white view of it. I'm not here to say that Israel was a saint in the matter, but take into consideration that they were attacked by ALL of their Arab neighbors. It might be just a little hard to let all the former Arab residents to return andjust sayall is swell especially when it happened again in '67. You have to understand the hesitancy in allowing them to return.


Happened again in 67, for what reason? For the refusal of Israel to address the plight of the Palestinians, perhaps? This is not romantic fiction. Anwar Sadat became hugely unpopular for making peace with Israel, despite winning back Sinai in the process, precisely because he made peace without demanding Israel to address the Palestinian issue.

The Palestinians are not Egypt, Syria and Jordan. You cannot justify denying right of return on grounds of security for which the Palestinians themselves are not responsible. In 1948, they were not even citizens of those countries.

Did you also support the Apartheid regime of South Africa? They too maintained discriminatory policies on the basis that they could not afford not to, fearing that an empowered black population with voting rights would use that power to retaliate against the white population.

jerm (5/21/2008)
This all or nothing, you're 100%wrong and we're 100% right attitude is exactly the problem in the Palestinian Authority. If peace is the goal, it will not be reached under these circumstances. Ifthe goal isthe destruction of Israel, the jury's stillout...


When you have been wronged, why should you be expected to settle for less than full redress? If you had been robbed of $100.000, would you be content with $60.000 and legally ceding your claim to the rest? Would you? Direct answer please.

Pray tell, what legit grievances does Israel have against the Palestinians whose ceding would make the ceding of Palestinian claims reasonable?

If certain legitimate claims are practically difficult to fulfil, such as the right of return, their legitimacy needs to be acknowledged nevertheless; and the underlying issue addressed in another, compensating way. Refusing to acknowledge the right of return is to say "Our national interests are more important than your rights, go screw yourselves!". In Gaza, in particular, the desire for return is particularly strong. The entire area is practically one big refugee camp, and the consequences of 1948 glaringly apparent. If the Palestinians are to cede the right of return (which would be pragmatically desirable), Israel needs to help them in building a new future elsewhere.

jerm (5/21/2008)
Question time. So, you cannot find it in your heart to condemn the suicide bombings in Pizza Parlours and busses of innocent women and children? This is what the Jihad against Israel consists of. Do you find these actions justifiable?


I was mainly taking a stance to the cause, not the methods. Of course I do not support terror attacks into the Israeli mainland. I know there are significant segments of the Israeli public who want a fair peace. But there are others who don't. Others who don't only oppose the peace process, but actively follow an irredentist Greater Israel ideology and do what they can to ensure the occupied territories become an Arab-free part of Israel, by forcing themselves onto the territories and making life as unbearable as possible for the Palestinians.

If I owned a private Palestinian terror network (isn't a theokraut allowed to dream ), I'd leave mainland Israel alone. Settlements in the occupied territories would be fair game. The isolated ones deep in the territory (whose linking to the Israeli mainland causes severe problems, like restrictions on Palestinian movement) would be targeted for genocide, as would the Kahanist enclave that Jewish Hebron is. There is no negotiating with people like them.
5/21/2008 4:15 PM


Udderly ridiculous

Udderly ridiculous

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This all or nothing, you're 100% wrong and we're 100% right attitude is exactly the problem in the Palestinian Authority.
Jerm, you sound like me in my 'absolutism' arguments about a month ago.

I knew you were a smart guy.
5/21/2008 4:39 PM
lame duck

lame ducklame duck