You will be assimilated!!!!!
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6/4/2008 12:09 AM


Radical Centrist

Radical Centrist

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So here we are, 20 years later, having much the same debate and being offered much the same deal ... in exchange for the same promises ... largely dependent on the will of another democratic congressional majority ... do you really expect the end results to be any different???

The bill and all provisions are public record ... perhaps reading it would enlighten you as to what is happening all over again.



Why Tosk, that is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make.

Thanks.

I did say, after all:

You'd think we'd have learned in the 20 some years that have passed since then, but we just want to repeat history over and over again!


Lets not let the fact that I shifted the blame around get in the way of what really matters!
6/4/2008 12:16 AM


Elite Pathogen

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So does anybody actually have a good solution other than what is (well, has been) being "sold to us?"
6/4/2008 12:28 AM


die with honor

die with honor

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YES! from the "It's never to early to start on 2008" thread.

My first campaign speech

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with
seed. Within a week I had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the
table... everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. And other birds were boisterous and loud:

They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food. After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore.

I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and removed the many nests they had built all around the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be ...quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now lets see... our government gives out free food, subsidized housing,
free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a citizen automatically.

Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families. You have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English.

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank speak to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Maybe it's time for the government to take down that darn bird feeder.
6/4/2008 12:37 AM


First Lieutenant

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9/17/2008 9:34 PM


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HOOOOORAH! 

Really...., it is the answer.  

If only it could be done.  But the feeders of the "birds" would loose their prey.  And I'm afraid the "birds" have no intention of leaving.  As seen in their now annual demonstrations of their power.  When you feel empowered enough to come out of hiding, even for a day to demonstrate...... 

More like a scene from Alfred Hitchcocks' "The Birds".

6/4/2008 12:39 AM


Elite Pathogen

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Oh yes, that's my Utopian solution as well .  I realize this will not likely happen...  though it's not too late to get you elected is it?
6/4/2008 12:44 AM


Grognard fantôme

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-M- (6/3/2008)
Illegal immigration is not the problem. The problem are the laws that limit immigration.

A person acts on his survival instincts. If those instincts tell him to hop the fence, that is what he will do. Each individual is far more nimble than burocracy, so he will find loopholes in any system given enough incentive. The biggest incentive that foreigners have is the fact that Americans are overpaid to the relative cost of living. It is so because the Dollar is the currency of World Trade. To be sure Americans are among the most creative, most innovative people on earth. That comes with wealth and is not a justification for being overpaid. When you are getting paid $6 an hour to flip burgers, & someone else has to break his back elsewhere in the world for $5 for a 12 hour work day, that someone has all the incentives to change his situation. Illigal immigration is not just the Mexicans. There are plenty Chinese, Russians, Philipino, etc. No fence is stoping these people.

Restrictive immigration laws are Protectionism. Protectionism can be the right answer in select times of great strain, but it never is a permanent solution. It is the system that is the problem & not the other way around.

I have to say Muk, I re-read this a couple times and I just don't get it. Are you saying that getting rid of any selectivity on who we is legally granted the privilege to migrate to and work in the U.S. is the solution?

I am all for recognizing the reality of globalization and taking proactive steps to respond to it instead of reactive steps. But at a fundamental level, all sovereignties must regulate their populations. Not having any restrictions on immigration would seem to only make things worse.

Fundamentally what this all boils down to is: the world is in reality a smaller and smaller place every year. A journey from Ireland to the U.S. was once a risky, and arduous journey of weeks, that had a pretty good chance to result in death. Now it is nothing, and neither is a journey from the Philippines or Ukraine. The social systems of today were built off of those of yesterday, a time when the world was smaller and the idea that what another guy/family 4000 miles way enjoyed is something you too should be able to enjoy. The problem is in the global homogenization of standards of living without commensurate homogenization in the opportunities to achieve standards of living. The idea that laws against immigration is the solution to this is simply akin to saying: the U.S. standard of living should be lowered so that everyone else's can be raised.

6/4/2008 8:53 AM


Udderly ridiculous

Udderly ridiculous

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I liked your speech, Tosk. Might get my vote if you keep that up.
6/4/2008 11:00 AM
lame duck

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I vote for Tosk

Scip, where do you get that I am saying standards of living ought to be lowered?

I am saying: "let the empoyer have a say in who he want to hire". If it is a buch of rag tags out of Mexico he want to hire to pick his oranges, let it be so. Why penelize an orange grove owner just because his workforce has to work on the locality. Whereas a telemarketing company can freely outsource all it wants to India. In both cases (mexicans working on an Orange grove & Indians making the telesales) american citizens will loose jobs. So where is the fairness from the orange growers point of view? An employer has to have the right to choose who he wants to employ. By the way minimum wage legislation is way wrong too.

On medicade, instead of commercialization I would rather see a universal health care (not just for the old). This way everybody gets the benefit of their taxes when they need it.

Instead of having a blanket income tax, taxation ought to be done through funds. Health Care Fund, Public Education Fund, etc. And those funds have to disclose their spending for transparency purposes. W/transparent reporting overspending will be minimized. Citizenry will stop complaining that they are paying taxes benefits of which they do not get, etc & so on.

6/4/2008 11:22 AM


Grognard fantôme

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-M- (6/4/2008)
I vote for Tosk

Scip, where do you get that I am saying standards of living ought to be lowered?

I am saying: "let the empoyer have a say in who he want to hire". If it is a buch of rag tags out of Mexico he want to hire to pick his oranges, let it be so. Why penelize an orange grove owner just because his workforce has to work on the locality. Whereas a telemarketing company can freely outsource all it wants to India. In both cases (mexicans working on an Orange grove & Indians making the telesales) american citizens will loose jobs. So where is the fairness from the orange growers point of view? An employer has to have the right to choose who he wants to employ. By the way minimum wage legislation is way wrong too.

On medicade, instead of commercialization I would rather see a universal health care (not just for the old). This way everybody gets the benefit of their taxes when they need it.

Instead of having a blanket income tax, taxation ought to be done through funds. Health Care Fund, Public Education Fund, etc. And those funds have to disclose their spending for transparency purposes. W/transparent reporting overspending will be minimized. Citizenry will stop complaining that they are paying taxes benefits of which they do not get, etc & so on.

Interesting. Don't really have a rebuttal or anything, just . . . interesting.