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7/5/2008 2:12 AM


Udderly ridiculous

Udderly ridiculous

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I would be far more able to live with something as reprehensible as "bone crushings" (or worse) more than I could live with myself allowing thousands of souls to perish and I didn't do everything (even torture) in my power to stop it.
That is the key difference between our opinion in this extreme example.

Do the ends always justify the means? I don't think they do. Jerm, since you're a religious man, is this something that any of the Old Testament prophets would do, or Jesus, or Joseph Smith, etc? Would any of the key religious figures we know of today do this? (Buddha, Krishna, etc?) I don't think so. Does that mean we're more practical today if we do? We care about society more? Are we smarter?

Its an awful scenario with awful consequences either way.

Just my opinion.
7/5/2008 5:32 PM


Elite Pathogen

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Do the ends always justify the means?

Always?  No.  Sometimes?  You betcha!

Nuke, it would seem you're engaging in a bit of... ahem... absolutism here .  Hey, you started the inconsistency game .  I will say, I do not know if the old or new testaments or Joseph Smith for that matter would fall favorably or negatively on this.  It is a very extreme and perhaps unlikely scenario but it allows you to work backwards to figure out where you stand.  I suppose the most extreme example would be some doomsday device which would destroy all life on the planet.  Where would you stand then? 

7/5/2008 6:07 PM


Udderly ridiculous

Udderly ridiculous

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Uh oh. 2 people referencing "absolutism" back at me on this particular debate.

Perhaps I'm guilty of this on this topic, but I see torture as an awful thing that I cannot find any reason at all to commit, ever. Is that absolutism? Maybe. If you can acknowledge that I find it "evil," is does that make it less absolutist? I suppose one could use that argument for any position on anything though. In that case, I guess I am absolutist on torture.

Doomsday example. Same thing. I would not torture another man. I would not do harmful things to babies. I would not torture a goat, I would not in a boat. On a dam, with a pan or on a man. Nuke I am. (little sleep deprivation there )

I guess to sum up my views on this... I find some things more important than the act of dying. Is life more important than values, honor, integrity? I don't think so, but it is a tough concept to put into terms with nuking city scenarios and doomsday devices, but I believe it still applies in those extreme debate-examples.
7/6/2008 3:44 AM


Conscript Rabbi

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I am sorry guys, my life is a balancing act of where to spend my time and I cannot keep up with the pace of this thread. I cannot read all and apart from scanning it for moderation purposes - I will not read it all; there are too many thing more important than this.

I'll reply to Jerm.

What if.... You know, that's the kind of catch all for discussions to get into an impossible twist. Whatever makes your proposed case realistic, will involve in REAL reality, a long history building up to the occurrence. What I want to say with that is that a wise man, will prevent himself to get into a situation a smart man can wriggle out of. None of what you describe, with any realistic train of events leading up to it, can go without moment you could have done a lot of wise things, to prevent this from happening.

But let us assume somehow, by unlucky, unwise and grim malevolence, we wind up in this situation. Our detainee, will have such power over us, he may choose not to share his knowledge anyhow. I admit I will consider torture. I have no problem with being a hypocrit. And should I succeed in burning the necessary info out of him, I am not sure I will report myself and try to get myself trialed and sentenced for crimes against humanity - which I still think I have committed at that instance.
But really, if all is such as you describe and the imminent danger is as vast as I imagine it. The detainee has so much power, I will expect him to send me on a wild goose chase. Hence, I might as well try to bribe him in stead of torture. As far as I can see, that may even have a greater chance of success. Or I'd drive him to Tel Aviv and say: OK, you and me. We die together or we live together. We'll be enemies forever, or shall we open a slight window for some remote future we could be friends...

EDIT: I write this a couple of hours later. Upon pondering my piece, I realized I stumbled upon an interesting litmus test while writing the above.
Consider the following. In any given case you would want to grab somebody and pry information out of him by means that are so painful and distressing that you can call it torture or anything you like, but it surely is an exceptional and harmful method for the person on which it is used, consider simultaneously, to try to achieve your goal by a sacrifice on your own part, either by making a precious offering to the potential torture victim, or even surrendering your own safety or life.
IF you are not willing to consider your own sacrifice, what possible right can you have to sacrifice anything of your fellow human.
If you are ready to sacrifice, then we have something to talk about.

Does that sound interesting? Or totally ludicrous?
7/6/2008 5:50 AM


Udderly ridiculous

Udderly ridiculous

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I will not read it all; there are too many thing more important than this.
Wait... huh? Stuff more important than THIS!?

Just teasin', Rabi.
7/6/2008 8:56 AM


Culture-Monger

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Nuclearcow (7/6/2008)
I will not read it all; there are too many thing more important than this.
Wait... huh? Stuff more important than THIS!?

Just teasin', Rabi.
Yup, I think the whole lot of you should come help me move =P
7/6/2008 10:17 AM


Grognard fantôme

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No matter how fanciful or remote the scenarios in which the highly controlled use of harsh interrogation may be in REAL reality, the argument I'm making is: the door should remain open for those methods as a POSSIBILIY, where the scenario demands it.

If we define everything short of totally kind, gentle, reciprocal, cooperative, and indeed as you've described it altruistic(!) interaction with a source as "torture," we have shut a door on our toolkit for dealing with these new global nuclear age issues. I am arguing that that is a mistake. We should not define ourselves as "good guys" into a highly obstructed and unpragmatic corner in which we will be less able to deal with whatever it is they have to hit us with. Neither should we define ourselves as "any means is justified by the ends of us winning." But there is a wide, and important space betweent those two extremes which need not be marked off as no-man's land by using absolutist, and polarizing rhetoric.

This is exactly the debate going on in U.S. jurisprudential contexts today, so while it is on the surface silly for us to be doing it too, it is not trivial.

7/6/2008 5:21 PM
lame duck

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I am w/out words. How come you sit & speculate with the comfort of knowledge that such a thing is not likely to happen to you. This is all bs. There is no scenario that demands anything of set nature.
7/6/2008 9:54 PM


Grognard fantôme

Grognard fantôme

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